Question for Liveaboards

[davidkaleta]

Thanks, i take your point, and agree, but for a couple to fully load a Leopard 45 would be outrageous lol. I'm foreseeing the basic luxuries, A/C, washing machine, dish washer etc. What was the most dramatic change for you once leaving Europe?

[davidkaleta]

Originally Posted by hpeer

To echo some above remarks..
BUDGET - Money
BUDGET - Time

We have been part time liveaboards for some years now and in a variety of climates.

You are at the beginning of a travel and lifestyle journey and your needs will likely evolve. You did not provide enough info to answer your question because you don't have not yet experienced the exact lifestyle you will eventually lead. So it is all a bloody big guess. And NO boat will be perfect for all occasions.

We lived aboard in a marina while working, before retiring and cruising. That entailed heaters and snow shoveling and condensation. We longed for a pilot house.

Our first year's cruising were lots of short sails and short stays. And lots of beating to windward. Strong motor to make difficult passages quicker. Short handed passages in confined waters are tiring and dangerous. We did a couple of longer passages to windward, 1,000+ miles. A trawler would have been great, but our 72hp drove the 40,000 pounds beast adequately

We have evolved to sailing between places we love to stay for a month or two. Being in the East Caribbean the sails are short. Now we deal with ventilation and shade and are thrilled to have a boat that does not roll much, has a BIG anchor and a bigger winch.

You embark on a journey of discovery, how could you possibly know the "perfect boat"?

I don't see us sailing oceans, more like short sails, long stays. So much area to cover in the Med.

[sailingharry]

The comments above about sailing performance, diesel consumption, balance between sailing and motoring, etc are all valid.

However, your specific use case is also a big consideration. If, like Jedi, your idea of live aboard involves significant distances and a passion for sailing, that drives a decision towards a performance sailboat. If you travel 4 to 5,000 miles a year, like the poster up thread, it's a different story than traveling 1,000 miles a year. I'm not sure that is your current intent. I think that you want a boat that can actually travel, and not the scrap heaps that we talk about in other threads. But I think that travel is a much smaller percentage of your intent.

For what I see of your use case, a far more important question than fuel consumption is comfort. For living aboard a boat that spends more time stationary than moving, catamarans and trawlers are unquestionably better living platforms. The square shape, the large windows, the elevated living spaces, the large back porch, all lend to a day-to-day in port level of comfort. And for a given square footage of living space, I suspect that a trawler is shorter and narrower than a catamaran, and so easier and cheaper to store in a marina.

One last comment. I disagree that a trawler has better MPG than a sailboat. They are probably better than a go-fast, but that square transom is still a horrendous drag.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by davidkaleta

Thanks, i take your point, and agree, but for a couple to fully load a Leopard 45 would be outrageous lol. I'm foreseeing the basic luxuries, A/C, washing machine, dish washer etc. What was the most dramatic change for you once leaving Europe?

Change of pace. I had just sold my ISP company and was still in the rat race. Sailed the boat from Florida east to the Virgin Islands, then south to Grenada. This is where it hit me we did the East Caribbean in a couple weeks and we went back to do it again, taking a year extra.

I recommend you watch this video, it is the best preparation for cruising ever. I know ai got a Sundeer so I’m biased but really, Dashew is a legend so lots to learn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QhWf7BUWL8

[Moosemiester]

We’re living on a 34’ Trawler that burns 1.2 gal/hr and want for nothing…. Been cruising 7 months.

When we went back to our dirt home for the holidays the bed seemed impossibly big…

You’ll be surprised how little you’ll need to cruise and be happy. We want for nothing when on the boat as we spend all our time exploring new ports, watching wildlife, cooking from scratch, or just spending quality time together.

Alan & Darina on Sea Moose

[mvweebles]

Older Willard 40 can be had in the $150k range. Two staterooms, single diesel, Transocean range at around 1.25 gph / 7.5 kts.

Many Defever 44-48s are in the $200k range and would be considerably larger than a 40-foot sail cat. About 2.5 gph at 8 kts.

Definitely want a stabilized boat if you go trawler. Many examples of folks going from sail to trawler including several sail circumnavigation. General sense is cost is about the same when you consider long term cost of sails and rigging vs mechanical and diesel.

[chris mac]

We are on a 42' catamaran. My wife and I full time, and the kids come visit periodically. Location and intent dictate how much we sail vs motor. On the east coast of USA we motor a lot since we are basically getting back north before hurricane season, or running south to get back to the Bahamas after hurricane season. Once we are in the Bahamas our schedule slows down and the wind dictates where and when we move around and we primarily sail. We put 4-5k miles on per year and at the end of it I would say 60% sail.
Both engines at cruising rpm moved us at about 7 knots. We get 55 hours run time on 70 gallons. We can run one engine to double our run time and that slows us to 5 knots.
In terms of overloading, we have the luxuries and toys we want. Laundry, water maker, hookah and dive gear, big battery bank, lots of solar, kayaks, well stocked pantry and fridges, ECT. Yet we still sail around 70% wind speed and commonly hit 10+ knots of boat speed comfortably.
The comment above about heating is bang on though. We have a forced air diesel heater. It keeps us warm enough, but in cold weather the floors are always cold and the furnace runs nonstop. So our solution is get south[emoji41]
What boat you choose needs to suit what works best for you. What best fits your needs and desires.
Good luck

[noelex 77]

I don’t think there is an average amount of motoring. Some boats perform well under sail, others not so much. Some cruisers are content to wait for a good weather window, others have a demanding schedule.

For what it is worth over 17 years full time cruising in reasonable performing cruising monohulls, we have averaged around 65 engine hours per year.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by davidkaleta

Quick question. You live full time on a 400, can i ask, how many on board, and where do you park it lol.

2 of us, with occasional 1 or 2 guests. Plenty space. 2.5 T of our stuff proven enough although we could throw away quite a bit still. We do not park boat, feels like true house on water so no need to go for shower or cooking somewhere else. 90+% on anchor. When we have land holidays, we leave it in marina on mooring.

Heavy boat has its advantages, say when anchored or sailing movements are slower and more predictable. It is definitely enjoyable to sail, however keep it light for that.

[ejs]

Full time liveaboard on a Leopard 48, moved to the med about a year ago. We have done more motoring than we did in the south Pacific, mostly because we like to anchor early, before the masses. The sea breeze isn't up in the AM. 2 comments about going trawler. You will NEVER get that blissful moment when you turn the engines off and sail . Motor sailing, even with a small amount of wind does damp the motion from leftover chop, wakes, etc. making for a nicer ride .

My 0 02, Eric

[davidkaleta]

Thank you all for your input, very valuable.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

interesting question you ask. As our boat Lagoon 400 just crossed 10 years mark, here is stat/calcs.

Boat travelled 45,000nm. Each 40hp engine 1600 hrs, average 160 hrs per engine per year. We full time.

Our average speed say 6kn. To travel at 6 kn our diesel needs 5L/hr.

If we used engines only, we would motor 45000nm/6kn = 7500 hrs. at 5 L per hour that means 37,500L of diesel.

We used 1600 hrs, or 8000L of diesel in life of our L 400 each motor. Sails saved 21,500L of diesel. If say diesel is at $2, means $43000 saved.

We have heavy Lagoon 400, however managed to setup nicely for sailing, including upwind. Trick is to keep it light if you can. We use roughly 50 % of available weight capacity which is still 2.5T of stuff.

We were forced to motor when on schedule or in urban centres. But we motor at slower speeds like 5 kn that consumes 3 L per hour so benefit of sails is larger than above calc suggests.

corrections for my calc, want to gt this right. There is around 20 % of time that we run both engines. That means boat was under motor (one or 2) not 3200 hours but 2670 hours.

Also there is engine running for battery charging, water heating, warming up 5 min before use and turning off another 5 min to cool down, engine running in whale areas t warn them.

here are my estimates for total 10 years
battery charging = 10 hours
water heating = 50 hours
warming up and cooling down 10 min per engine usage, sometimes turn again shortly after so we use 5 min instead of 10. Total 3000 turnon/off = 240 hours
whales nearby areas = 20 hours

So total other motor uses than driving = 10+50+240+20 = 320 hours.

Hours used engine 1or2 for actual travel = 2670 - 320 = 2350

Hours under sail only (assuming 6 kn average) 7500 - 2350 = 5150.

meaning we saved 5150 *5 = 25,750 L of diesel or $51,500.

Now, there is considerable time motorsailing where diesel usage is 2 l/hour and estimate around 300 hours that would further add value to usage of the sails but will leave it out to be more conservative.

Of course, as others mention, there is also that feel, song of seas, that you participate in, when sailing that you get as a bonus. Many do sailing for that reason alone so before you decide, make sure that you clarify to yourself if you belong to that group as leaving this bit on table if you go trawler, is not good.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by davidkaleta

Hi All. I'd like an honest answer based on actual experience. My wife and i are planning to buy a boat to live on full time in the Med, and maybe venturing up north to Norway (possibly). We both have a number of years sailing both monohulls and catamarans. Now, here's the question, how much actual sailing do you actually do, vs using your engines. My experience is a 70/30 split for motors.

I'm tempted to start looking at trawlers, due to the fact that their fuel consumption is better per mpg usually and that a lot of time will be spent in one location, maybe a month at a time.

Cheers

Hmmm ... the Med and Norway.
I'd be looking at something that could go through the canals with and wouldn't be too concerned about the motoring percentage .
My 39' x 5'7" draught came south through France in about 1990.
Either that or something you are happy crossing Biscay in ( my boat has done that more than once as well).

How much I motor depends on what I am doing... penultimate trip from Valdivia to Ecuador maybe 3 percent. Coming back south it was about 30%.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

interesting question you ask. As our boat Lagoon 400 just crossed 10 years mark, here is stat/calcs.

Boat travelled 45,000nm. Each 40hp engine 1600 hrs, average 160 hrs per engine per year. We full time.

Our average speed say 6kn. To travel at 6 kn our diesel needs 5L/hr.

If we used engines only, we would motor 45000nm/6kn = 7500 hrs. at 5 L per hour that means 37,500L of diesel.

We used 1600 hrs, or 8000L of diesel in life of our L 400 each motor. Sails saved 21,500L of diesel. If say diesel is at $2, means $43000 saved.

We have heavy Lagoon 400, however managed to setup nicely for sailing, including upwind. Trick is to keep it light if you can. We use roughly 50 % of available weight capacity which is still 2.5T of stuff.

We were forced to motor when on schedule or in urban centres. But we motor at slower speeds like 5 kn that consumes 3 L per hour so benefit of sails is larger than above calc suggests.

Throw in the cost of new sails and redoing the standing and running rigging every 10 years and suddenly that $43000 advantage isn't as big.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Throw in the cost of new sails and redoing the standing and running rigging every 10 years and suddenly that $43000 advantage isn't as big.

you are correct. I am not saying sail is better. Rather just presenting real life motor vs sail numbers for well travelled and well sailed boat.