Question for Liveaboards

[davidkaleta]

Hi All. I'd like an honest answer based on actual experience. My wife and i are planning to buy a boat to live on full time in the Med, and maybe venturing up north to Norway (possibly). We both have a number of years sailing both monohulls and catamarans. Now, here's the question, how much actual sailing do you actually do, vs using your engines. My experience is a 70/30 split for motors.

I'm tempted to start looking at trawlers, due to the fact that their fuel consumption is better per mpg usually and that a lot of time will be spent in one location, maybe a month at a time.



Cheers

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by davidkaleta

Hi All. I'd like an honest answer based on actual experience. My wife and i are planning to buy a boat to live on full time in the Med, and maybe venturing up north to Norway (possibly). We both have a number of years sailing both monohulls and catamarans. Now, here's the question, how much actual sailing do you actually do, vs using your engines. My experience is a 70/30 split for motors.

I'm tempted to start looking at trawlers, due to the fact that their fuel consumption is better per mpg usually and that a lot of time will be spent in one location, maybe a month at a time.

Cheers

You are lucky, you still need to buy a boat so you have choice. The answers you will get will cover the spectrum from both extremes

My recommendation is to buy a sailboat that is very easily driven, both performance wise and comfortable.

For a cat this means you must be very light so you can’t take much stuff with you, but most cats have a good sail plan (large full batten main with stack pack, easy to rig light air sails etc.)

For a monohull you get the weight carrying capacity and can bring all the gadgets, but unfortunately many monohulls are slow to sail and not easy to handle either. Most don’t have fully battened mainsails, some even in-mast furling which gives up 25% sail area or more (our mizzen is 78% of the mast-boom rectangle for surface area while in-mast is only 45%)

So if you are the type to live and travel light then it isn’t too difficult finding a cat but if you need more weight carrying capacity then you need to find the right boat (they are there, just filter down to get rid of the bulk)

A motorboat is a dead end imo. Soon you will have to swear allegiance to murderers to be allowed to buy fuel or it will simply not be available. Another point scored for cats is the real estate to mount solar arrays.

[gonesail]

there are trawlers out there with small engines. but they are rare. one that comes to mind is the nordhavn 40 with 100 hp. lugger diesel. with low RPMs you could get pretty good mileage.

[barnab]

Sailing in the med can be a bit a questionable pleasure....I assume you have a Schengen citizenship or something that lets you stay in Schengen for an unlimited time? If you have to adhere to the "90 days in, 90 days out" rule you'll find out that there is a lot of Schengen and just a very little bit of non-Schengen in Europe...


What speaks for a trawler is that you can use the canals, for example to go from the Med to Norway you don't need to sail all around Europe (which is btw most of the time against prevailing winds.


Don't forget that winters in the Med can be fresh or cold, whatever your benchmark is and you will be very happy if your boat has heating.



Catamarans are great to live on, but they are too wide for canals and they are not made for heating (usually no insulation, simple windows and a bad volume-to-surface ratio) - in that case marinas that have electricity included in the fee are your friends (typical winter marinas know that and meter/charge electricity separately. And marinas in the Med usually charge 150% to 200% compared to a same length mono.

[JPA Cate]

Hello, David,

Sorry to tell you this, but the answer really is going to have to be based on your values.

Here's why: I have been content to play the catch a zephy game, and consider it a victory if I could get the boat moving, eventually at 1/2 a knot. But this has been in the middle of the ocean, and it really didn't matter what direction.... Whenever you have a schedule in mind, you are unlikely to play the catch a zephyr game for long.

So, I happen to agree with Jedi that you should stay with sail, and to make sure it is an easily driven boat. Windward capability is also a very good thing to have. Personally, I would not want to commit to having to use a whole lot of the world's diminishingly politically correct diesel supply for my travels. You can have a much smaller carbon footprint with sail. So, within your budget, you look for a narrow hull for its length, lighter weight for its length boat, so as to keep the winching loads something your bodies can cope with for some years.

Now, if you are not a patient person, and you are a person for whom schedules matter, you might be happy to pay the prices involved. Then, go for the trawler. It really depends on how flexible you and if there is one, your partner, is.

You might be interested in this: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-275912.html


Ann

[arsenelupiga]

interesting question you ask. As our boat Lagoon 400 just crossed 10 years mark, here is stat/calcs.

Boat travelled 45,000nm. Each 40hp engine 1600 hrs, average 160 hrs per engine per year. We full time.

Our average speed say 6kn. To travel at 6 kn our diesel needs 5L/hr.

If we used engines only, we would motor 45000nm/6kn = 7500 hrs. at 5 L per hour that means 37,500L of diesel.

We used 1600 hrs, or 8000L of diesel in life of our L 400 each motor. Sails saved 21,500L of diesel. If say diesel is at $2, means $43000 saved.

We have heavy Lagoon 400, however managed to setup nicely for sailing, including upwind. Trick is to keep it light if you can. We use roughly 50 % of available weight capacity which is still 2.5T of stuff.

We were forced to motor when on schedule or in urban centres. But we motor at slower speeds like 5 kn that consumes 3 L per hour so benefit of sails is larger than above calc suggests.

[Kinkircating]

The first thing you need to decide on is your budget for the boat, that will help point you in a direction. Any one of the choices could be the right one for your mission. There are catamarans that have the load carrying capabilities and sailing ability that makes them extremely autonomous, coupled with 3kW-5kW of solar and you have an off grid capable machine that uses less than $2,000/yr in diesel. Only issues are cost, and they are pretty large boats for a couple to handle. The ratio is more like 90/10 because you can be sailing in as little as 7-8 knots at a decent clip.

The Med and Scandinavia are much more monohull friendly. Good luck in your decision!

[davidkaleta]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You are lucky, you still need to buy a boat so you have choice. The answers you will get will cover the spectrum from both extremes

My recommendation is to buy a sailboat that is very easily driven, both performance wise and comfortable.

For a cat this means you must be very light so you can’t take much stuff with you, but most cats have a good sail plan (large full batten main with stack pack, easy to rig light air sails etc.)

For a monohull you get the weight carrying capacity and can bring all the gadgets, but unfortunately many monohulls are slow to sail and not easy to handle either. Most don’t have fully battened mainsails, some even in-mast furling which gives up 25% sail area or more (our mizzen is 78% of the mast-boom rectangle for surface area while in-mast is only 45%)

So if you are the type to live and travel light then it isn’t too difficult finding a cat but if you need more weight carrying capacity then you need to find the right boat (they are there, just filter down to get rid of the bulk)

A motorboat is a dead end imo. Soon you will have to swear allegiance to murderers to be allowed to buy fuel or it will simply not be available. Another point scored for cats is the real estate to mount solar arrays.

Thanks, but this will be our home, so traveling light is not an option as we will want all the toys. Many catamarans are capable of "luxury" along with toys, leopard 45 for example.

[davidkaleta]

Originally Posted by gonesail

there are trawlers out there with small engines. but they are rare. one that comes to mind is the nordhavn 40 with 100 hp. lugger diesel. with low RPMs you could get pretty good mileage.

Thanks, i'll have a look.

[davidkaleta]

Originally Posted by barnab

Sailing in the med can be a bit a questionable pleasure....I assume you have a Schengen citizenship or something that lets you stay in Schengen for an unlimited time? If you have to adhere to the "90 days in, 90 days out" rule you'll find out that there is a lot of Schengen and just a very little bit of non-Schengen in Europe...


What speaks for a trawler is that you can use the canals, for example to go from the Med to Norway you don't need to sail all around Europe (which is btw most of the time against prevailing winds.


Don't forget that winters in the Med can be fresh or cold, whatever your benchmark is and you will be very happy if your boat has heating.



Catamarans are great to live on, but they are too wide for canals and they are not made for heating (usually no insulation, simple windows and a bad volume-to-surface ratio) - in that case marinas that have electricity included in the fee are your friends (typical winter marinas know that and meter/charge electricity separately. And marinas in the Med usually charge 150% to 200% compared to a same length mono.

Thanks, yep, from Ireland, so no visa issue and i know about the cold lol. Never thought about the canals to be honest.

[davidkaleta]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hello, David,

Sorry to tell you this, but the answer really is going to have to be based on your values.

Here's why: I have been content to play the catch a zephy game, and consider it a victory if I could get the boat moving, eventually at 1/2 a knot. But this has been in the middle of the ocean, and it really didn't matter what direction.... Whenever you have a schedule in mind, you are unlikely to play the catch a zephyr game for long.

So, I happen to agree with Jedi that you should stay with sail, and to make sure it is an easily driven boat. Windward capability is also a very good thing to have. Personally, I would not want to commit to having to use a whole lot of the world's diminishingly politically correct diesel supply for my travels. You can have a much smaller carbon footprint with sail. So, within your budget, you look for a narrow hull for its length, lighter weight for its length boat, so as to keep the winching loads something your bodies can cope with for some years.

Now, if you are not a patient person, and you are a person for whom schedules matter, you might be happy to pay the prices involved. Then, go for the trawler. It really depends on how flexible you and if there is one, your partner, is.

You might be interested in this: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-275912.html


Ann

Thanks. No, the schedule will be totally open, but it's a liveaboard, so will want space and luxury. All these things combined normally restricts the sailing capability, unless you go into high end.

[davidkaleta]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

interesting question you ask. As our boat Lagoon 400 just crossed 10 years mark, here is stat/calcs.

Boat travelled 45,000nm. Each 40hp engine 1600 hrs, average 160 hrs per engine per year. We full time.

Our average speed say 6kn. To travel at 6 kn our diesel needs 5L/hr.

If we used engines only, we would motor 45000nm/6kn = 7500 hrs. at 5 L per hour that means 37,500L of diesel.

We used 1600 hrs, or 8000L of diesel in life of our L 400 each motor. Sails saved 21,500L of diesel. If say diesel is at $2, means $43000 saved.

We have heavy Lagoon 400, however managed to setup nicely for sailing, including upwind. Trick is to keep it light if you can. We use roughly 50 % of available weight capacity which is still 2.5T of stuff.

We were forced to motor when on schedule or in urban centres. But we motor at slower speeds like 5 kn that consumes 3 L per hour so benefit of sails is larger than above calc suggests.

Excellent, exactly what i was looking for, thank you.

[davidkaleta]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

interesting question you ask. As our boat Lagoon 400 just crossed 10 years mark, here is stat/calcs.

Boat travelled 45,000nm. Each 40hp engine 1600 hrs, average 160 hrs per engine per year. We full time.

Our average speed say 6kn. To travel at 6 kn our diesel needs 5L/hr.

If we used engines only, we would motor 45000nm/6kn = 7500 hrs. at 5 L per hour that means 37,500L of diesel.

We used 1600 hrs, or 8000L of diesel in life of our L 400 each motor. Sails saved 21,500L of diesel. If say diesel is at $2, means $43000 saved.

We have heavy Lagoon 400, however managed to setup nicely for sailing, including upwind. Trick is to keep it light if you can. We use roughly 50 % of available weight capacity which is still 2.5T of stuff.

We were forced to motor when on schedule or in urban centres. But we motor at slower speeds like 5 kn that consumes 3 L per hour so benefit of sails is larger than above calc suggests.

Quick question. You live full time on a 400, can i ask, how many on board, and where do you park it lol.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by davidkaleta

Thanks, but this will be our home, so traveling light is not an option as we will want all the toys. Many catamarans are capable of "luxury" along with toys, leopard 45 for example.

I’m afraid you’ll will find that once you load a Leopard 45 to capacity, it won’t be easily driven anymore. I think you need a 49-50’ cat to gain that luxurious performance home for a cat and more than 50’ for a monohull.

We have lived aboard full time for a very long time and find that most of the views we had before leaving Europe in 2002 have changed dramatically. I don’t think what others told us at the time changed our minds at anything and I think you may follow the same path

[hpeer]

To echo some above remarks..
BUDGET - Money
BUDGET - Time

We have been part time liveaboards for some years now and in a variety of climates.

You are at the beginning of a travel and lifestyle journey and your needs will likely evolve. You did not provide enough info to answer your question because you don't have not yet experienced the exact lifestyle you will eventually lead. So it is all a bloody big guess. And NO boat will be perfect for all occasions.

We lived aboard in a marina while working, before retiring and cruising. That entailed heaters and snow shoveling and condensation. We longed for a pilot house.

Our first year's cruising were lots of short sails and short stays. And lots of beating to windward. Strong motor to make difficult passages quicker. Short handed passages in confined waters are tiring and dangerous. We did a couple of longer passages to windward, 1,000+ miles. A trawler would have been great, but our 72hp drove the 40,000 pounds beast adequately

We have evolved to sailing between places we love to stay for a month or two. Being in the East Caribbean the sails are short. Now we deal with ventilation and shade and are thrilled to have a boat that does not roll much, has a BIG anchor and a bigger winch.

You embark on a journey of discovery, how could you possibly know the "perfect boat"?