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Paul_Carroll · 18-06-2021, 07:53

I love the electric boats too.
And if I ever get to have my way would want to build a big cat with all electric, massive solar, and a genset for when I needed to motor really long distances. However, I recognize that very few people today would understand such a system and they would naturally discount the vessel in their mind. They would be asking themselves the inverse of what you are, "Okay, I have to rip all that electric out and put in two new diesels, so I want a discount of $XYZ from his asking price...."
As for you original question, I would go with #2, or even older, then only upgrade systems after using the boat cruising for at least 6 months. This way you get a boat that really matches what you want and you only spend on what you need instead of what you think you need now. The only return we EVER get on all the time and money we spend on a boat is the smile that we get whenever we approach our boat. If you are not happy with your boat, then it is a terrible waste of money...

Leighpilot · 18-06-2021, 09:53

Yup , my boat came with two brand new engines because the previous owner had installed two electric motors and then had to remove them because they were useless. If you’re like the average guy who motors whenever possible electric isn’t the way to go. If you just use the motors to get off the berth, they’re ok. Cats don’t like all the battery weight that is part of getting decent range

thataway41 · 18-06-2021, 10:46

If you are going to truly circumnavigate, it will be much in your favor to be able to power for at least 1000 miles. Sure it can be done with no engine. For example one of my friends had to power most of the way across the Indian Ocean. Also a long range is a safety feature, if you have some critical component of the rig fail, which you cannot repair.

I would judge by hull condition rather than age. Rig failure is often caused by faulty chain plates, in areas which are not easily accessible.

When I buy a "new to me" boat I budget 25% of purchase price for updates of electronics, rig, and systems.

Stu Jackson · 18-06-2021, 12:29

The basic, simple, repeated, irrefutable answer to electric propulsion is RANGE.

For many sailors who sail locally, it is NOT an issue. They piddle out of their marina, sail for a few hours, sail back and motor into their slip.

Now, put yourself in the doldrums and you need to, want to, or have to because of impending weather, motor for two days straight. In MOST cases, your electric propulsion simply wouldn't be able to do that.

Since you say you have 2 years, how 'bout you do some research and homework on the issue?

Good luck.

mountaindweller · 18-06-2021, 14:14

Welcome! Here are a few thoughts-
Scenario 1- 2018's 45 ft and up are currently well above 600K. Think more like 800K and up.
In 5 years time, you may find some for 600K but you will likely put in 15-20% more to make it "yours", do necessary upgrades and maintenance. What type of cabin configuration do you want? The majority of Leopards come on the market out of Moorings charter and are often configured 4 cabin. 3 cabin, non-chartered Leopards are selling for 100-150K more.
Scenario 2- I like the newer 45 layout and lines more than the 2013ish 44's and 48's, but that's just me. Have you considered a scenario 3 which is a 2006-2011 Leopard 46? This was designed by Morrelli and Melvin and has quite a following. They are reputed to sail better than the later Simonis designs, and in some cases are selling for more the original price. A 3 cabin Morrelli 46 would be high on my list.

Have you been on board any of these? If the intent is for primarily a couple to be onboard, a 50ft and larger is a lot of boat and not really necessary IMO. A well equipped 46 or 45 is more than capable and plenty of room. You may jepordize a fraction of hull speed, but you are buying a production cat in which speed is not the priority anyway.

I would encourage you to get on as many of these models as you can and then you will make the best decision for you. Best of Luck

Wolfgang.Schau · 18-06-2021, 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by uniopp

I considering purchasing a Leopard 45-52 for live aboard circumnavigation. A new version is out of my price range and the initial depreciation is a concern.

I’m interested to hear everyone’s opinion on which of the following scenarios is better-

Scenario 1:
Purchase a 2018 Leopard 45-52 for around $600,000 and use as is until things start to go wrong. It may not contain my preferred brand and all desired electronics.

Scenario 2:
Purchase a 2013 Leopard 45-52 for around $400,000 and replace all rigging, sails, engines and preferred brand electronics. I would replace the Diesel engine with Oceanvolt motors.

Which would you do and why?

If I replace most of the critical components (rigging, sails, engine, electronics) on an older hull, will I loose on my investment in the long run? Have I missed any critical components?

Also, is a 2013 hull (that has passed a survey) as good as a 2018 hull (that has passed a survey)?

Thanks.

I think you make a wrong point. The age of the hull is of no much concern. Glass fiber hulls can easily last 30+++ years. Over time, you may have blisters, tread them, no big deal.
Why would you replace a 8 years old diesel engine? This seems to me like almost new for a diesel engine. These engines, well maintained, can perform many decades. The biggest problem for a diesel engine is not being run.
An 8 year old rigging - check the condition of the sails, 8 years is not too old to be replaced. If you circumnavigate, you may get new sails anywhere, maybe even cheaper. The rigging, take spare robes, halyards, shackles with you if you have a problem in the deep ocean, no need to replace everything at this age, unless is shows sign of wear an tear. People wash their running gear to make it soft again. I have sailed a 30years old Wauquiez for decades, the only thing I had to replace was a ball bearing for the furling forestay, because I did not do the preventive maintenance with the annual greasing of the bearings :-)
Now I am sailing a 10 years old Foutaine Pajot catamaran. The only thing I had to replace was the sail cover of the lazy jacks and the exhaust elbow of the Volvo D1-30. I replaced it with a stainless steel version.

Bottom line, if you are okay with the design and layout of the 2008 model, save $200,000, invest 50,000 in spares and off you go.

My recommendation, save the $200,000 and invest it into a good solar system, and spare parts which sometime maybe hard to get overseas (including a spare propeller).

This all assumes you don't have two left hands. Then you better stay in radio call distance of the tow boat. Other than that, you should be good with the 2013 model.

I would never buy a new boat. The previous owner had to take care of all the infant problems and already managed to get all the warranty repairs done.

These are my 2 cents

Creedence · 18-06-2021, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfgang.Schau

I think you make a wrong point. The age of the hull is of no much concern. Glass fiber hulls can easily last 30+++ years. Over time, you may have blisters, tread them, no big deal.
Why would you replace a 8 years old diesel engine? This seems to me like almost new for a diesel engine. These engines, well maintained, can perform many decades. The biggest problem for a diesel engine is not being run.
An 8 year old rigging - check the condition of the sails, 8 years is not too old to be replaced. If you circumnavigate, you may get new sails anywhere, maybe even cheaper. The rigging, take spare robes, halyards, shackles with you if you have a problem in the deep ocean, no need to replace everything at this age, unless is shows sign of wear an tear. People wash their running gear to make it soft again. I have sailed a 30years old Wauquiez for decades, the only thing I had to replace was a ball bearing for the furling forestay, because I did not do the preventive maintenance with the annual greasing of the bearings :-)
Now I am sailing a 10 years old Foutaine Pajot catamaran. The only thing I had to replace was the sail cover of the lazy jacks and the exhaust elbow of the Volvo D1-30. I replaced it with a stainless steel version.

Bottom line, if you are okay with the design and layout of the 2008 model, save $200,000, invest 50,000 in spares and off you go.

My recommendation, save the $200,000 and invest it into a good solar system, and spare parts which sometime maybe hard to get overseas (including a spare propeller).

This all assumes you don't have two left hands. Then you better stay in radio call distance of the tow boat. Other than that, you should be good with the 2013 model.

I would never buy a new boat. The previous owner had to take care of all the infant problems and already managed to get all the warranty repairs done.

These are my 2 cents

Solid post.

You address a lot of things here that frankly, I hesitated to bring up. Discussing things like “new vs old” hulls, wholesale replacement of foundational systems, etc betrays a lack of (not quite basic) intermediate knowledge, that any reasonable person would probably want to have a grasp of before committing money, time, and energy into a commitment like boat ownership (easy) let alone circumnavigation (really hard)

I’d recommend getting on the water somehow- small boat, club, etc, break some stuff, learn some lessons... crawl, then walk. I’d bet good money that after doing that, the OP would come back with an entirely refined, probably different set of questions.

As mentioned, boats configured as the OP envisions do not sell at market value, and that’s not an accident.

merrydolphin · 18-06-2021, 20:37

Depends on so many variables. I bought a 1973 Cal 46 with lots of original equipment. Original engine, original 8k generator, original watermaker, autopilot, radar ( a green round screen with black rubber viewing hood! With some relatively minor work got it all working. Sailed 1500 miles south to La Paz, Mexico where I got things the way I wanted. With some newer back up equipment, auto, plotter used SSB transceiver, better back up anchor, some newer sails as needed. etc. but the boat worked fine. I sailed for 6 yrs and sold to a guy that sailed it from Cabo to Hawaii, to Vancouver, to Tahiti………and beyond. He added a vane gear. Valve job on original Perkins 4-236 still running great with countless thousands of hours on it. And you are worried about a 2013 or 18 boat?! OK. My last boat was much newer, a 1980 ! Put tens of thousands of miles on it too. Sold it 2 yrs ago still running with original engine. Also a Perkins. If the boat’s been carried for, replace rig every 10-15 yrs.

dc9loser · 18-06-2021, 21:13

Don't listen to anyone who pretends you have to spend years driving a small boat to become a real sailor before buying the boat you want. That is hilarious.

Anyone of modest intelligence and good judgment can figure out how to run a sail boat in short order.

Buy a boat in as good of condition at the cheapest price that you can find. Survey the boat and use any deficiencies as a bargining tool.

Fixing up a boat is almost always a loser. Its always much harder and more expensive to do this then ya think. Unless you can competently do all the work and you have lots of time, and you enjoy that work, just don't even think about it.

I painted my 40 foot boat last year. I spent hundreds of hours to obtain a mediocre result. I have a great job where I could have used those hours to almost cover the cost of a new (used) boat, lol.

Once you get your boat, yeah unless you have a huge nest egg, learn to fix everything ya can within reason... because you will often be out of range of any help. But don't buy a fixer upper.

Creedence · 18-06-2021, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc9loser

Don't listen to anyone who pretends you have to spend years driving a small boat to become a real sailor before buying the boat you want. That is hilarious.

Anyone of modest intelligence and good judgment can figure out how to run a sail boat in short order.

Buy a boat in as good of condition at the cheapest price that you can find. Survey the boat and use any deficiencies as a bargining tool.

Fixing up a boat is almost always a loser. Its always much harder and more expensive to do this then ya think. Unless you can competently do all the work and you have lots of time, and you enjoy that work, just don't even think about it.

I painted my 40 foot boat last year. I spent hundreds of hours to obtain a mediocre result. I have a great job where I could have used those hours to almost cover the cost of a new (used) boat, lol.

Once you get your boat, yeah unless you have a huge nest egg, learn to fix everything ya can within reason... because you will often be out of range of any help. But don't buy a fixer upper.

Whatever you do... “Don’t listen to anyone who says you have to start conservatively.... that’s what “hilarious” jokes are made of.....
I started conservatively and learned along the way.... Do what I did.”

Masterful advice. This forum’s membership is simply overflowing with those who have thrown caution out the window in favor of impulsiveness. Let’s go through the archives and count the successful voyages they’ve made.

You’re advocating exactly what those suggesting moderation are recommending while at the same time denigrating them.

Of course you can LEARN along the way, that’s the entire point. Maybe don’t worry about crossing oceans on day 1, get a boat and learn how to fix your toilet first (among a thousand other things).

There are enough context clues in this thread to suggest the OP should embrace fundamentals before racing to the finish with exotic solutions. Who wants to learn fundamentals in an “INOVATIVELY” conceived cluge-machine?... DONALD CROWHURST anybody??

**Adelie** · 18-06-2021, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by uniopp

I considering purchasing a Leopard 45-52 for live aboard circumnavigation. A new version is out of my price range and the initial depreciation is a concern.

I’m interested to hear everyone’s opinion on which of the following scenarios is better-

Scenario 1:
Purchase a 2018 Leopard 45-52 for around $600,000 and use as is until things start to go wrong. It may not contain my preferred brand and all desired electronics.

Scenario 2:
Purchase a 2013 Leopard 45-52 for around $400,000 and replace all rigging, sails, engines and preferred brand electronics. I would replace the Diesel engine with Oceanvolt motors.

Which would you do and why?

If I replace most of the critical components (rigging, sails, engine, electronics) on an older hull, will I loose on my investment in the long run? Have I missed any critical components?

Also, is a 2013 hull (that has passed a survey) as good as a 2018 hull (that has passed a survey)?

Thanks.

A boat is not an investment. You will lose money.
If you buy new you will lose in more in depreciation but have less maintenance.
If you buy 30yr old or older the depreciation is probably close to leveled out, but have to pay a more for outfitting and a more for maintenance. If you get lucky you find an older boat with less to repair/outfit and that’s probably the situation where you lose the least. If you get unlucky it’s a money pit.

Are you going all in on electrical or aiming for some flavor of hybrid?
If you are all in then you need to accept the fact that motors are for getting in and out of harbors, setting the anchor, getting out of the way of a shop that might run you down and helping the boat thru tacks.
You will need to load up some on batteries and plaster as many solar panel across the roof as possible.
With enough batteries and solar panels you probably could maintain 2.0-2.5kt indefinitely in Sunny conditions.
Regen from the motors is not going to be a big source of power, not insignificant but not a big percentage compared to a good solar setup.

If you are going hybrid, parallel not series, the fuel efficiency advantage of parallel is somewhere around 20% or better.

**Adelie** · 18-06-2021, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by uniopp

I know we will always lose money but which scenario is worthwhile doing?

You are on the water, both scenarios are worth doing.

What you probably mean to ask is whether there is a monetary advantage of one over the other.

I would go with the older boat and have it arranged how you want it. You can probably get all major systems new for the same net price.

Pizzazz · 18-06-2021, 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by rramsden

Especially if you plan on replacing outdated systems. Look older.
I bought a 20 yr old Fountaine Pajot. It had reasonably new engines and new electrics. My major expense is sails. And a lot less purchase cost.
Plus the older FPs have much better performance than the new ones.

Since you say you're still learning. There are internet site that connect crew with boats. Far cheaper than chartering. My biggest sail was crossing the Atlantic on a 47' cat. I'm in the opposite position now, and look for crew.

Most accurate comment in my opinion. The typical refit age is 15-20 years, not 8 years. Try to get a boat from the early 2000s for $150-200k, then put $100k in it to make it yours. My though process would be:

1) how much do you care about the finish of the hull? If you like new and shiny to perfection, then you need to go newer. If you are willing to tolerate some minor chips and cracks, then you can go older.

2) Replace only what is necessary. Preventive maintanance is important but can get expensive. Rigging failure is unlikely even after 20 years unless the boat was sailed hard (rintensive racing).

3) Electrical propulsion will get more accepted with time. For range, your options are either diesels or a diesel generator with matched motors. I am not sure which one is better. Even if the generator to electric motor is less efficient, the losses are small while you can optimize the electric motor rpm/torque/propeller characteristics to your style of cruising which will compensate the losses in the conversion. It is much easier and less costly to replace a generator than two diesels. Still, the typical buyer of an older boat will not appreciate the electric conversion. If I were you, I would also go electric but beware.

**Adelie** · 18-06-2021, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by uniopp

I'm interested to hear why?

Is it because the technology is not quite there yet?

I would actually prefer a hybrid system that allows both diesel and electric to power the same drive. Something like the external parallel in the Antares 44 Hybrid (although that is a shaft drive).
https://www.antarescatamarans.com/an...ybrid-details/

I recently came accross this Yanmar sail drive but I don't think the diesel actually drives the prop. I think it is just a charging generator.
https://www.yanmar.com/ltc/global/ma...picIndex03.jpg

Anyway, I'm interested to know more about why the resale price will be a problem.
Thanks

Lack of general acceptance. People, especially relative novices are unwilling to accept the compromises of all electric.

I suspect a hybrid would have a resale disadvantage because of lack of familiarity by purchasers but can’t really say for sure.

Manufacturers like sail drives because there is less or no skill involved in aligning shaft to motor and because the engine room needs less length for motor installation for more livable space in the same hull which is a selling/profit advantage.

Shaft drives require a much smaller apparature thru the hull and do not have an major aluminum fixture constantly immersed in seawater. Some major manufacturers refute to install saildrives even at an owner special request because they feel so strongly about the safety/liability tradeoffs.

The Antares looks like a good setup for long distance cruising. Betamarine has something similar.

The Yanmar system looks like a good system to have on a short range ferry where loads change frequently or for daysailing and shorepower recharging is possible.