Extended sea trial on pre catamaran purchase

[LeeV]

Your choices as I see it:
1. Listen t all the previous, knowledgable sources and learn.
2. Buy a charter cat AFTER you’ve chartered it for that purpose; they “may” discount the charter if you buy the boat (this is sometimes offered for a new/new-ish boat.
3. Buy an RV, but even then the owner won’t let you drive away for 7-14 days. Pretty much the same deal as a second home, plane, etc.

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Sit, I get where you are coming from. You are thinking outside the box. Nothing wrong with that. So many responders here didn’t read your post correctly and jumped to wrong conclusions. Sorry, most of us are old dogs. Damaged by divorces and boat ownership.

Best coarse? Try your theory and see if it works. Of course it has low probability. But as they say… ‘It only takes one.’ Wish you luck.

Thank you Alan!

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

I doubt if anyone is going to give you their boat for 10-14 days and stand on the dock and watch you disappear over the horizon.

A sea trial of an hour or two with the owner, you and your surveyor onboard is all that should be needed or excepted. I doubt if an owner is going to modify his insurance coverage for what is really a loan of the boat to you. Its questionable if the owner could even get you (the buyer) covered by his insurance given your limited experience.

Your previous charter experience involved charter boats which are covered by fleet insurance. The insurers will cover many boats, even when some may be chartered Bare Boat to inexperienced operators on the theory that the whole fleet probably won't crash and sink all at once.

How can you tell anything about my "limited experience"? I am sailing for more then 20 years and carrying a bunch of legal sailing and radio licenses?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Piscis

How can you tell anything about my "limited experience"? I am sailing for more then 20 years and carrying a bunch of legal sailing and radio licenses?

Do you find radio licenses helpful in sailing

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Then what is the point...if you aren't going to back out or negotiate a better price based on the flaws, just buy it and you will have plenty of time to find all the flaws without jerking the seller around.

Also, your assumption of paying a premium for a well outfitted boat is generally false. Usually, there is negligible cost difference for a well outfitted boat vs a stripped down boat.

Thanks for your reply, Valhalla!

Well, the point is - i see that whole process from someone spending 300-350K$ for an 5-8 year old, used or abused boat, trying to minimize as much as possible doing/buying the wrong thing/boat. Its just that easy.

From my point of view: nothing wrong with that. From a sellers point of view, taking into account my suggestions on my initial post, nothing wrong with that too, as far as the boat is not a lemon...

It is not a "charter for free" thing or a "negotiate a hell of a discount" - as everybody who read and understood my intitial post correctly can see!

From my "limited experience", i can say that many problems/defects/issues a boat might have, will not show up on an 1-2 hours quick sailtrail, where time is money and everyone likes to finish that 2 hours as quick as possible.
As stated above, many things on charter boats getting fixed "the zipptie way"... A surveyer may find, or may not.

Some things show up only after a couple of hours/days usage. As far as i am able to fix that problems/issues by myself, spending a few $$ on spareparts - no problem at all. I have absolutelly no problem in doing so. I am a die hard DIY, and since we bought our new house 17 years ago, there was not one craftsman in for repair...

However, if there are some more serious issues, that will show up after a couple of days. I would be more than happy to talk to the seller to find a solution both participating parties can live with.

Again: At that point i already made commision to buy that boat. The Seller agreed already to sell it. I am not hopping around from boat to boat, year after year to get free charter

Anyway, as said already above - i do get the advice from you guys that it is higly unlikely that a private seller, using his boat as a liveboard or weekend retread, would jump onto my offer. However, i would say that 90% the boats i was nearing down on the sales platforms as a potential candidate do not fall into that category. Most are still in charter or in the roleout phase...

Thanks again,

John

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Do you find radio licenses helpful in sailing

At least it doesnt make it worst. LOL

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Also, your assumption of paying a premium for a well outfitted boat is generally false. Usually, there is negligible cost difference for a well outfitted boat vs a stripped down boat.

OT, but....

So you are saying a 5 year old boat, outfitted with factory Watermaker, Generator, A/C and extra sails would not be significantly higer priced than the same boat without those options?
I mean, we are talking about 100-120.000 Euro here (Lagoon 40 pricelist from 2021, adding 25% VAT in Croatia or 7% in Thailand).

I dont think such an equipped boat would sell for only a "negligible" higher price...

[mvweebles]

Piscis - I can see why this is a good idea for you - you are seeking to shift risk of incomplete survey to seller. Not only is this a non-traditional value proposition, seller's risk is elevated beyond your risk-shift because deal is extended and it's possible boat is returned damaged which will require time/money before going back on market.

Your benefits are clear - What do you see as the benefit for the seller? Only way I might consider it is with a hefty non-refundable deposit to assure buyer has significant skin-in-game to close deal.

Honestly, I don't think this is a fair deal. Don't expect too many replies from brokers. If extended try-before-you-buy is important to you, restricting your search to boats that are in-charter and for-sale is a good idea for everyone.

Peter

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Piscis - I can see why this is a good idea for you - you are seeking to shift risk of incomplete survey to seller. Not only is this a non-traditional value proposition, seller's risk is elevated beyond your risk-shift because deal is extended and it's possible boat is returned damaged which will require time/money before going back on market.

Your benefits are clear - What do you see as the benefit for the seller? Only way I might consider it is with a hefty non-refundable deposit to assure buyer has significant skin-in-game to close deal.

Honestly, I don't think this is a fair deal. Don't expect too many replies from brokers. If extended try-before-you-buy is important to you, restricting your search to boats that are in-charter and for-sale is a good idea for everyone.

Peter

Thanks Peter, good points.

I do understand, with this way, there is a shift of liability of possible overseens issues the boat has after purchase.

However, if the "traditional way" has most, if not all of the risk of such issues completely at the buyer, i think it might be a good idea of at least splitting that risk.
I would say that it is all about the agreement the Seller and the Buyer would agree upon prior such a procedure.

That extended seatrail would be done after i decided already: "i want that boat for the agreed price". If a comercial Seller sells a boat and offers a warranty, it is all about the warranty conditions. Same here.

Dont forgett, there are countries where a commercial Seller MUST offer warranty (in Germany it is not called "warranty", however, the "Sachmaengelhaftung" protects the buyer from issues a good has for 24 Months on new goods and 6 Months on pre owned goods) on ANY good for a legally set amount of time - and we are talking new AND used goods.

But i do understand, there is the risk of getting a boat back damaged by the cause of the Buyer...

Nobody said it would be easy...

John

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Dont forgett, there are countries where a commercial Seller MUST offer warranty (in Germany it is not called "warranty", however, the "Sachmaengelhaftung" protects the buyer from issues a good has for 24 Months on new goods and 6 Months on pre owned goods) on ANY good for a legally set amount of time - and we are talking new AND used goods.

I learn something every day on forums like this! Sounds like countries like Germany would be a better fit for you - you wouldn't need an extended sea-trial at all since there the seller already has an obligation to remedy any defects for 6-months!

In the business world in the US, extended transactions such as this often have 'break-up fees' if the buyer is unable/unwilling to complete the transaction for any reason. A recent merger between Willis Towers Watson and Aon hit a regulatory barrier - Aon ended-up writing a check for $1.4b USD even though the deal was forbidden by US antitrust regulators (yes, "Billion" with a "B").

Good luck John -

Peter

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Thanks Peter, good points.

I do understand, with this way, there is a shift of liability of possible overseens issues the boat has after purchase.

However, if the "traditional way" has most, if not all of the risk of such issues completely at the buyer, i think it might be a good idea of at least splitting that risk.
I would say that it is all about the agreement the Seller and the Buyer would agree upon prior such a procedure.

That extended seatrail would be done after i decided already: "i want that boat for the agreed price". If a comercial Seller sells a boat and offers a warranty, it is all about the warranty conditions. Same here.

Dont forgett, there are countries where a commercial Seller MUST offer warranty (in Germany it is not called "warranty", however, the "Sachmaengelhaftung" protects the buyer from issues a good has for 24 Months on new goods and 6 Months on pre owned goods) on ANY good for a legally set amount of time - and we are talking new AND used goods.

But i do understand, there is the risk of getting a boat back damaged by the cause of the Buyer...

Nobody said it would be easy...

John

Problem is this just isn't true with the standard process. The sales contract gives the buyer an out based on the survey(s), based on anything they don't like with the seatrial and any other conditions put in the contract. The buyer gets the deposit back and the seller has a boat that just fell out of a deal. Not sure how you see this as the risk is all on the buyer. Once the buyer accepts all the surveys, seatrials and conditions then they are no longer the buyer, they are the new owner who now owns all the risk for the boat.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Piscis

OT, but....

So you are saying a 5 year old boat, outfitted with factory Watermaker, Generator, A/C and extra sails would not be significantly higer priced than the same boat without those options?
I mean, we are talking about 100-120.000 Euro here (Lagoon 40 pricelist from 2021, adding 25% VAT in Croatia or 7% in Thailand).

I dont think such an equipped boat would sell for only a "negligible" higher price...

That is exactly what I am saying and what is typical.

The better outfitted boat will often sell quicker but not for significantly more because as you indicate...buyers aren't trusting of add on equipment condition.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Well, the point is - i see that whole process from someone spending 300-350K$ for an 5-8 year old, used or abused boat, trying to minimize as much as possible doing/buying the wrong thing/boat. Its just that easy.

So what is your response if you find significant issues during your extended cruise (or even moderate issues)? What if you just don't like the boat even though there is nothing strictly speaking wrong with it?

a) Buy it anyway
b) Ask for a discount comparable to the issues.
c) Walk away.

Anything other than a) and you are doing exactly what I described and it is why the buyer is not going to be interested in tying up the boat for a month or more with no guarantee of the final sale or sales price.

It's possible, you may run into someone desperate to get rid of a boat but that's often a red flag to be wary.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Dont forgett, there are countries where a commercial Seller MUST offer warranty (in Germany it is not called "warranty", however, the "Sachmaengelhaftung" protects the buyer from issues a good has for 24 Months on new goods and 6 Months on pre owned goods) on ANY good for a legally set amount of time - and we are talking new AND used goods.

While I'm not familiar with the German warranty requirements:
a) New boats are a totally different animal.
b) Most yacht sales are private party not commercial.
c) There are similar issues in the USA. The sellers respond by selling in "as-is" condition. There is a big legal disclaimer with commercial deals and you sign off on it. I would be surprised if there isn't a similar option in Germany...I mean how do you sell an old car? No one would run a used car lot if they had to pay for every little issue that comes up on a 20yr old beater.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

That is exactly what I am saying and what is typical.



The better outfitted boat will often sell quicker but not for significantly more because as you indicate...buyers aren't trusting of add on equipment condition.

Correct.