Catana 471 vendor hiding survey

[double u]

...while a 10 year old survey is worthless as far as value & "good sides" of the boat are concerned, it sure would be interesting to see what faults were mentioned & how/if they were rectified. I am surprised that so many of you deny this...
The fact that the seller does not want to divulge, it points strongly in the direction, that there were grave faults, that were not properly repired or, even repaired, would be off-putting to the buyer.

[sw34]

Originally Posted by double u

...while a 10 year old survey is worthless as far as value & "good sides" of the boat are concerned, it sure would be interesting to see what faults were mentioned & how/if they were rectified. I am surprised that so many of you deny this...
The fact that the seller does not want to divulge, it points strongly in the direction, that there were grave faults, that were not properly repired or, even repaired, would be off-putting to the buyer.

While I agree with this, I don't think it would be a deal breaker. Catana 471's don't come on the market every day, if this is your target model I would at least try to see it for myself or hire a surveyor to do a pre offer inspection.

You would not walk away from a 10 year old one owner boat that never had a survey. It just as easily could have had the bottom ripped out and poorly repaired.

I look carefully for discoloration in gelcoat and fresh paint in some parts of bilge and not others.

[dhenline]

lots of strong opinions and negativity here.
following is my opinions you can agree or disagree. First of all I come from the airplane purchasing world. In the airplane world everything is documented and kept in "logs". the value of an airplane is 50% the plane and 50% the log books. It is also considered standard practice to look at the log books before ever going to see a plane or have an inspection done on a plane.

So buyer wants to see the old survey? Sounds fine to me, I am sure there is ALOT to learn from that survey and to says it is worthless shows a general lack of knowledge of the purchasing process. Is it a deal breaker if it is not available? NO but worthless? No as well.

Getting a new survey: of course this is a good idea and so is a sea trial etc. But the more information you can obtain in advance the more likely you will be going into the purchase with your eyes wide open. Traveling to see a boat "maybe the cheapest part of the deal" But it is NOT without alot of hassle. Flights, time off work, hotels etc.


In general the best transactions are when you have a reasonable seller who is dealing with a reasonable buyer. And getting those two in the same room is often the hardest part of buying a boat

[grantmc]

This is indeed a (sadly) very negative thread and when I read the OPs second post I somewhat had the whiff of troll pass my nose. I also agree with SMJ and one or two others that making a post that identifies the prospective boat is disingenuous to the vendor. But the damage was done early [REDACTED].
[REDACTED]... is to draw members to the fact that the seller has included the following (twice) in the listing:
Out of water survey in 2020.
So anyone looking at the vessel would, of course, have every right to see that survey. The seller put it out there as a feature. Stupid for sure, but it's there.

But reading the OPs two posts I suspect that the seller also picked up on a degree of negativity and felt that there might be easier deals elsewhere. Who wants to deal with some agro dude who may not even have $AU550K in their back pocket.

I have mixed views as to an old survey's value, and agree with the learned aviator member in the post preceding, that the log book has more relevance and useful information. And no I don't want to start a new discussion on log books, but I've always maintained one and the boats I've bought have always had one.

[bstreep]

Jeez. IF the surveyor wrote the survey "correctly", it can't be used by you. I'm a real estate appraiser, and my closest friend is a real estate inspector. These reports (combined they are similar to a survey) are work product that is protected by copyright law, and they have an identified and therefore limited use.

There is enough problem for professionals to get liability insurance without "sharing" of these documents. But they get shared like a 90's teenager shared on Napster.

You want a survey? Pay for it. Period.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by Julesmoto

I can't believe how clueless people are on here but I guess this is the
internet.
An old survey can be very valuable for a number of reasons.
Problems can be patched up or disguised and the survey you get has no guarantee of finding them. Surveyors are a lottery and vary enormously in competency. Furthermore even the very best surveyors cannot discover some things. If you have heard the terms destructive and non destructive investigation you will know what I mean. Are you going to sand of layers of paint and bog to expose osmosis problems? Are you going to XRay the keel bolts, is your surveyor going to drill and analyse core samples... of course not but an old survey may alert you to disguised and possibly recurring problems.
25 yo boats are a minefield and every bit of info you can get us potentially priceless especially if you know it is being hidden. People don't hide things for no reason
Anyway the sort of ignorance exhibited here has caused me to lose interest in my rekindled interest in this forum (I had forgotten my password and username and had to reset) so I'll leave you guys to your (mostly) ignorance. I'm sure there are some knowledgeable members left on here but they seem to be MIA ATM.

First, I wouldn't think that a forum member should be able to call out an exact boat and listing on this forum, I'm surprised it's allowed.

Second, this is the "Cruisers Forum" not the "Cruise Ship Forum"; there's no need to announce your departure.

[smj]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Jeez. IF the surveyor wrote the survey "correctly", it can't be used by you. I'm a real estate appraiser, and my closest friend is a real estate inspector. These reports (combined they are similar to a survey) are work product that is protected by copyright law, and they have an identified and therefore limited use.

There is enough problem for professionals to get liability insurance without "sharing" of these documents. But they get shared like a 90's teenager shared on Napster.

You want a survey? Pay for it. Period.

I don’t think he wanted to use the survey as a means to get insurance or financing, just a way to get more info on the condition of the vessel, which I have no problem with.
My problem is with naming the vessel as that can hurt the sales for the seller.

[Wotname]

Moderator Note -

CF community rules states This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to solely vent frustrations about vendors or sales from private parties. Please settle your differences with the seller, manufacturer and dealer through other means but not through our community.


Doxing not permitted.

Although a little late, the identification of the vendor has been removed and as the thread has other useful posts, it remains open rather than getting deleted.

[Fore and Aft]

Wotname I texted the vendor to get his side of the story and it's a little different to the original OP story. I doubt he has anything to hide, more like a clash of personalities. Nothing I haven't seen before when surveying boats, some people just forget to put their best foot forward when out in public.
Cheers

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

........ some people just forget to put their best foot forward when out in public.
Cheers

Or on social media - perhaps especially so on social media!

[CarlF]

Anyone who’s sold a cruising boat quickly learns how to sort the genuine buyers from the time wasters. A guy who won’t even come see the boat without first getting an old survey is in the latter group.

Fortunately, the wife figured it out before her husband.

[Snowgoose35]

I have to say all the insults to the OP are unjustified

if a vendor says he has surveys and agrees to send them, then reneges on that it is the vendor who is being out of order. Perhaps he looked at the old survey for the first time in years and went "oh cr*p I forgot to fix that major fault" and the newer 2020 survey is very relevant . If the seller did not want them to be seen then don't mention them as an aid to the sale.

If he changes his mind then its a big red flag that before sending he re-read them and had a problem. Otherwise its just an email, costs him nothing and gives a buyer more info on a half million dollar purchase. He can then instruct his surveyor to make special note of earlier repairs or issues highlighted as surveyors - even good ones - miss A LOT

I have been repairing cats for years and normally just before or after purchase for brokers - the stuff surveyors miss, even well respected old salts is unbelievable and having a start point to say - look 10 years ago xyz was a problem so take a look at that first is no bad thing and in now suggests an inability to pay for a new survey.

Also, as a side note, I always now survey myself as I'm better than most surveyors having worked on hundreds of cats over years - and when my last boat was bought and refitted the insurer asked for a survey - I said I could get one done but there was a then, 3 year old insurance survey (from before the hurricane that damaged it leading to my purchase) and they said that was fine and saved me the cost of a new survey .

[capt jgw]

On my first look at my present boat I found and old survey from 12 years earlier. An interesting read but useless except to see if the items flagged looked like they had been repaired. Of course the survey I commissioned flagged a new list of things.

[Junglebike]

I'd be a bit irritated if I were the OP - getting on a plane to see a boat is a pretty big commitment & a sign of seriousness in and of itself; forget about the cost, it's a huge amount of time & hassle. Lots of boats are misrepresented in their ads. The old survey might be "useless" but it could also tell part of the vessel's story - why hide it? I'd be getting cold feet as well.

[Knotical]

When we were looking for our first boat we had received old surveys on a few boats, the sellers were not obligated to do it but they did it in good faith.

Now, if a seller promises to share an old survey and then retracts - that will raise a huge red flag in my mind, just like sellers don't have time for tire kickers, I do not have time for such sellers, there are plenty of boats around.

The boat that we ended up buying was not the one in best condition at the time, but the seller and broker made me comfortable throughout the process and I was sold on the relationship that we had formed, I still talk to both of them occasionally.

I wanted to buy another boat which was in very good condition and was listed at 90k, the broker never returned my call or emails, he must have thought I was just another tire kicker, that boat sold 2 years later for 65k.

Boats are more than a prized possession and responsibility to do a successful sale lies on both parties, it finally comes down to who is more desperate, the seller may not be so at this time but will be in 2 years if the boat does not sell.

The OP was wrong to share the boat name however.