Catana 471 vendor hiding survey

[Bbolino]

The survey belongs to the person who procured it, and it is his choice whether to share it or not. If it is more than a year old, I wouldn't pay attention to it anyway.

The standard marine purchase agreement places no disclosure requirements on the seller and all the burden to determine the suitability of the purchase on the buyer. It is pure Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware

Marine surveyors are like any other craft - there are good ones and bad ones. If I am shelling out a sum of money for a vessel, I am having it surveyed by a surveyor of my choosing.

As someone else said, a plane ticket is the cheapest part of the process. I have flown or driven to inspect and survey two vessels that I walked away from - cost $5k each time. But that was a lot less than what the water in a transmission was going to cost

Buying boats is not for the faint of heart

[clakiep]

I once bought a pre-owned 38' feet catamaran - KENNEX 380 - an ordered a survey, also to get to know the procedure. I found out that besides knowledge about osmosis and eventual delamination, all the rest I could have done myself as well.

So have the boat 'on the hard' and look it over, maybe with the help of a fiberglas expert and a rigger. Than put it in the water and put all systems to work.

Of course, having a professional written survey at hand, you can ask for a lower price
more politly, in case you are rather shy in doing so personally.

Capt. Claus - ocean tramp of the 80ies

[RedneckRedcoat]

Couple of things first the vendor does not have to give you the survey. It’s not actually theirs to give unless they paid for it. Plus surveyors normally do two types of server , insurance and purchase surveys.

Why are you relying on the vendor survey other than to save a few bucks ?

The survey is going to be out of date and a lot can happen to a boat in that time.

Put an offer in and conduct the survey yourself

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Bbolino

The survey belongs to the person who procured it, and it is his choice whether to share it or not. If it is more than a year old, I wouldn't pay attention to it anyway. (some stuff deleted)

Bbolino - fair enough. But I think the OP's beef* is that the old survey was volunteered by the seller early in the process, and then when it got closer to the time to come see the boat, changed their mind and would not share the old survey. To me, that smells like a bait and switch and strongly suggests that there is something in it they do not want the buyer to see. If it is the case that an old survey is of no value, why would anyone be unwilling to share something that is of no value? Doesn't pass the smell test.
Agree with you that boat buying is not for the faint of heart, but if you see a red flag on the beach, maybe you shouldn't go in the water.

*I am taking the OP's post as written, acknowledging that it may not be the whole/true story. I second other's concerns as well about the OP posting the boat name.

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Jeez. IF the surveyor wrote the survey "correctly", it can't be used by you. I'm a real estate appraiser, and my closest friend is a real estate inspector. These reports (combined they are similar to a survey) are work product that is protected by copyright law, and they have an identified and therefore limited use.

There is enough problem for professionals to get liability insurance without "sharing" of these documents. But they get shared like a 90's teenager shared on Napster.

You want a survey? Pay for it. Period.

Real estate appraiser? Does that make you a marine engineer as well. Nonsense. Surveys can be shown to anyone by the seller. The seller revealed he had two old surveys, offered to show them, then retracted that offer. Red flags are flying. Run.... What else are they hiding.

[Dave9111]

Engineer here. Knowing a boats history of repair and use is vital to the value of the boat. The snootiness of some of the folks here shows some real ignorance. Tire kicker?? Come on. The guy was about to get on a plane. The most valuable thing I have is my time. Saying that the boat looks nice is pointless. How thick is paint and gel coat. Is that the best you can do? If its shiny its good? Good luck with that evaluation. Overlooking old surveys is foolish. Relying only on a recent survey that all looks good is also nonsense. You should be looking for ALL of the boats documents. This seller has something to hide. Buyer beware.

Go back and read the message concerning airplane documentation. When you buy a plane all of the logs have to be included. If not, its virtually a salvage sale. Because airplanes falling out of the sky can lead to death. But people buy boats, and rely only on a " recent survey" then go offshore? Crazy.

[Rothblum]

If this were a real estate deal in the Washington DC area, and the seller's broker were aware of the existence of a home inspection, the broker would be obligated to make any potential buyer aware of the survey. Not sure what the penalty would be, because I never knew of anyone who would try to conceal a previous home inspection. I would say that if a buyer became aware of a previous survey that the owner would not produce, it would be a good idea to walk away from that sale. (Unless you were a lawyer who planned to capitalize later by suing for concealment of a known defect.)

[Fore and Aft]

I think what a lot of people are thinking is that for some of us our boats are like family members, and we are not just going to sell them to any person who has the cash. So, if you don't get a good vibe from the buyer on the phone then why proceed with the sale.

Cheers

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I think what a lot of people are thinking is that for some of us our boats are like family members, and we are not just going to sell them to any person who has the cash. So, if you don't get a good vibe from the buyer on the phone then why proceed with the sale.

Cheers

Over the years I have seen these forums having a common advice for first time boat buyers - do not get emotionally attached to a boat. Same motto should apply to the sellers too, they should make every attempt to sell the boat, if that’s what they want to do.

[SailingHarmonie]

It seems obvious to me as an engineer that the older the survey, the less it is worth.

So for those of you who think that "old" surveys are valuable, how old is 'too old"?

My own opinion is that the 11 year old survey the OP insists on seeing is totally worthless, and I have no interest. So, for those who disagree, is there ever a time frame when it ages out of being worth something? When you buy a boat do you insist on seeing every survey ever done on the boat, or you walk away?

When I bought my boat the previous owners had owned it for 10 years and circumnavigated. Should I have insisted on seeing their purchase survey before I even looked at the boat? That just seems totally ignorant. How about the owners before that? Should I have insisted on seeing 20 year old surveys before looking seriously?

For those of you trying to tie this to airplane maintenance logs, do note that marine surveys are TOTALLY different than maintenance logs... and worth a LOT less. A maintenance log is a history of good care. A survey is a snapshot by someone who has never seen the boat and has no knowledge of its history, and in my experience is worth far, far less than my personnel inspection. Apologies to the surveyors who read this, but most of your fellows are pretty clueless.

[Uncle Bob]

To add some context, how much is an airfare departing Sydney at the earliest time possible, to the Gold Coast and a late return to Sydney, to look at a boat on the market for A$500,000 plus. IMHO the best way forward is to spend the few dollars, lake a thorough look and make a decision on moving forward.

[Knotical]

It seems people are having trouble understanding that OP’s seller had advertised to share the old survey, and then backtracked, hence the red flag.

An old survey showing a major structural damage would be very helpful, along with how it was repaired, followed by inspection and certification, it doesn’t matter if the survey is 10 or 20 years old.

It is impossible for new surveys to catch everything, doesn’t matter how extensive it is, add older surveys and logs to the current one and you get a pretty good picture of the vessel.

If you want to sink your hard earned money on a sight seeing trip where the seller is being a jerk go ahead, it’s your money.

[lestersails]

This is a classic Bayesian probability problem. Bayesian probability is the concept that an event has some baseline (prior) probability, but that probability is altered by a piece of evidence (conditional probability). That piece of evidence raises or lowers the prior probability to give you the answer, which is the posterior probability.
There are two possible scenarios here.
1. The boat has an unremarkable history
2. The boat has a serious, hidden problem
Without any information specific to this boat, there is some overall probability of scenario 2 for every used boat that is for sale.

If the seller never offered you a survey, I would suggest that since this is routine behavior in both scenarios and as such, it is not much evidence for or against scenario 2.
If you have a seller who offers you a prior survey, but then reneges on that offer at the last minute, that behavior is much more likely in scenario 2 and as such, that is a conditional probability that makes scenario 2 more likely.

I can't measure how much more likely scenario 2 is, but it is more likely. As many commenters have stated, it is a red flag for a problem.

[Cheechako]

Had a survey done, "no he didn't"
Will give the survey to you, then refused. Did he re-read the survey and then decline after finding some things?
At any rate, you need your own survey but he should be more honest and helpful.

It seems like a big red flag to me.

[Fore and Aft]

There's a third possibility, I am not sure everyone noticed it's a private sale.
Imagine someone rings enquiring about the cat, is disrespectful to you on the phone. Then insists on seeing the survey. You're politely trying to get rid of this cradle kicker. Finally after the conversation with a person you have zero interest in meeting let alone showing your cat. That person then gets on CF crying over spilt milk and within four posts has his hand smacked and some of his posts removed. So forget the red flags, some personalities just clash and everyone is better to just walk away.
Just because you're selling something doesn't mean it's an invitation for people to disrespect you.
Cheers