Catana 471 vendor hiding survey

[Julesmoto]

So I recently contacted the owner of the above Catana [REDACTED] and had a chat during which he indicated that he had a survey from when he bought the boat in 2012 and also another one for insurance purposes in 2020. I indicated that I would make arrangements to travel interstate and he said he would send me the purchase purchase survey.
I was about to book my flight and thought I would just ask him one more question and also ask him why I hadn't received the purchase survey a day later. He then said that he had fixed everything in the purchase survey and it was old now so he wasn't going to send it to me.I persisted but he flat out refused.
He kept assuring me that there was nothing bad in it but I said if there was nothing to hide why didn't he send it and he still refused with his wife's refusal as his excuse. Obviously there is something bad in there that they don't want me to see.

Is not the first time I have encountered this sort of behavior as I inquired about one boat in the past and got the owner to send me a survey that he had had done for his purchase. It wasn't that great so I didn't pursue the boat. [REDACTED] The agent told me that the owner was in the trade and consequently had not had a survey conducted when he purchased it. A bald faced lie.
Pretty much no one buys an expensive yacht without a purchase survey especially when insurance companies will demand it so if the original one, no matter how old, is not supplied you need to be extremely suspicious.

Got to be careful!

[Rucksta]

At this stage of the sales process you have demoted yourself from prospect to fender kicker.

If you want to promote yourself to potential buyer make a conditional offer, say 10-20% below the asking price with survey, mechanical, service history, rig & sea trial clauses.

"Everything is fixed" quoted the vendor so any issues revealed are undisclosed issues and subject to remediation or price adjustment.

Buying a boat without survey may be foolish but relying on vendor or broker facilitated survey is an order of magnitude more so.


P.S. the cost of an airfare is one of the cheapest parts of the purchase process.

[smj]

I can understand your frustration and you have 2 options, pursue the boat or don’t. I have no problems with you venting your frustrations on a public forum, but to actually put the type, name and where the boat is advertised to me is very distasteful.

[5BTM]

Sounds to me like the seller has a smart wife.

She probably said:" If the buyer can't afford to pay for a survey, can't afford the boat."

[sw34]

Surveys also contain valuation information, which may be a reason they wont send it either. I personally am struggling a bit in todays market paying either the same amount or more for a used boat than either what the previous owner paid, the last thing I want to see is proof of that! Of course I say that having just sold for nearly the same I paid for our previous boat!

The second thing is to me the survey is at best 80% accurate on the day its done, three months later that is down to 50%, within a year I would say its flat out useless.

I also agree with smj, that posting info directly about the boat in question was not necessary.

[pcmm]

Honestly a 12 year old survey isn't worth the paper to print it out. Over 12 years a lot can happen to a boat, both good and bad. If you are interested in the boat, go have a look and do your own "pre-survey" if its still worth moving forward, then get a current purchase survey.

Also an insurance survey is not worth your time reading as its outcome is different than a purchase survey. If I'd been the seller I wouldn't have mentioned the original survey as its 12 years old and worthless.

For example, my boat purchased in 2015 (8 years ago) has had the following done:
Lots of glass work to close in 15 unused thruhulls.
repowered including new engine beds, prop, controls, etc.
re-rigged both standing and running
new sails
all new wiring
all new plumbing
reskinned interior
new upholstery
new instruments
rebuild the stern tube area
all new canvas
new propane system including new deck lockers for the tanks
Arch for solar, and dinghy
new electronics

and the list goes on:

The survey at my purchase and today would read like 2 completely different boats

[Julesmoto]

I can't believe how clueless people are on here but I guess this is the
internet.
An old survey can be very valuable for a number of reasons.
Problems can be patched up or disguised and the survey you get has no guarantee of finding them. Surveyors are a lottery and vary enormously in competency. Furthermore even the very best surveyors cannot discover some things. If you have heard the terms destructive and non destructive investigation you will know what I mean. Are you going to sand of layers of paint and bog to expose osmosis problems? Are you going to XRay the keel bolts, is your surveyor going to drill and analyse core samples... of course not but an old survey may alert you to disguised and possibly recurring problems.
25 yo boats are a minefield and every bit of info you can get us potentially priceless especially if you know it is being hidden. People don't hide things for no reason
Anyway the sort of ignorance exhibited here has caused me to lose interest in my rekindled interest in this forum (I had forgotten my password and username and had to reset) so I'll leave you guys to your (mostly) ignorance. I'm sure there are some knowledgeable members left on here but they seem to be MIA ATM.

[5BTM]

Yeah, we are all dummies...

"Nothing of value is ever given away for free" has been my motto, but what do I know.

Another kudos to the seller's wife, her female intuiton has served her and her husband well.

[Fore and Aft]

Julesmoto you sound more like a new boat buyer than a used boat buyer. I do plenty of pre-purchase surveys and they are almost worthless after a period of time. I surveyed a boat last week that was a 100% different to what it looked like 18 months ago. The owner had spent over $80,000 and my survey was so different to the original survey. This year I surveyed an 80-footer that needed serious work doing to it, four months later the owner got me back and my survey report was way more favourable. These two particular boats you didn't need an old report to see the amount of new equipment and paint on them.
That "free" survey report you seem so desperate for could be the biggest load of BS you have ever read. I personally have read a few reports that were forwarded to me where I wonder if the surveyor has even been onboard.
I think you have some funny ideas about osmosis problems, if there are no visible blisters on the hull when the boat has just been slipped then you can be happy, they have been well fixed. Why would you sand layers of paint away to look at a good old repair has me beat? Sure, if it's bubbling again there is an issue, but plenty of boats I survey have had osmosis repairs, and you would never know.
Really if you like the boat, go see it in person then start the buying process. A good walk around and a look in most of the cupboards, bilge and engine room will tell you if the boats worth buying.
If you are crying about the cost of an airfare to see the cat, then boat ownership is really not for you. The survey and slipping are going to set you back $3000 at least on a big cat. And yes, its old so there will be issues, that's why you are not paying anywhere near the new price of a Catana 471.
Cheers

[smj]

Originally Posted by Julesmoto

I can't believe how clueless people are on here but I guess this is the
internet.
An old survey can be very valuable for a number of reasons.
Problems can be patched up or disguised and the survey you get has no guarantee of finding them. Surveyors are a lottery and vary enormously in competency. Furthermore even the very best surveyors cannot discover some things. If you have heard the terms destructive and non destructive investigation you will know what I mean. Are you going to sand of layers of paint and bog to expose osmosis problems? Are you going to XRay the keel bolts, is your surveyor going to drill and analyse core samples... of course not but an old survey may alert you to disguised and possibly recurring problems.
25 yo boats are a minefield and every bit of info you can get us potentially priceless especially if you know it is being hidden. People don't hide things for no reason
Anyway the sort of ignorance exhibited here has caused me to lose interest in my rekindled interest in this forum (I had forgotten my password and username and had to reset) so I'll leave you guys to your (mostly) ignorance. I'm sure there are some knowledgeable members left on here but they seem to be MIA ATM.

Judging by your attitude on this forum I can see why the owner didn’t want to bless you with his survey.

[gsuescum]

Wow. An 11 year old survey is a deal breaker for what looks like a gorgeous boat? That old survey is totally useless.

If you don’t want to make a trip. Pay a surveyor a few hundred to take a quick look at her and tell you if she’s worth really going to see.

Also, until you make an offer and put 10% into escrow you aren’t a serious buyer. It’s just how boat sales of this magnitude happen. I’ve done the buy/sell thing 7 times now so I know. It’s pretty amazing how fast a sale can happen.

[Madehn]

They own the old survey. You have zero rights to it and to judge from your response lack basic understanding of the process. Didn’t get the survey don’t buy the boat your choice. Go out there and look for someone that will give you their survey. Good luck with that. Happy hunting. Go for it. Try to grasp this When it is YOUR boat it’s YOUR choice. When it is THEIR boat it’s THEIR choice and I doubt they really care what you think or want. Your rant about them hiding something smacks of childish pique at not getting your way. Good luck with your boat hunt. Suggest you try west coast ( I am on gulf coast 😀😀😀&#128512.

[gsuescum]

Another tip. Don’t approach a purchase in an antagonistic, nickel & dime fashion. It will bite you.

I had an Aussie friend sell his 45’ Fontaine Pajot here in Grenada. He even hosted the buyer and spent a few days showing the guy everything about the boat and showed him how to sail it.

The boat was kept in Bristol shape and the final survey reflected it when it came in. The only items were that a few fire extinguishers were going to expire within 6 months.

This first time buyer latched onto this and said the deal was a no-go unless he replaced and/or had the extinguishers tested. My friend was really annoyed with this. It was a matter of a few hundred $ but a lot of hassle for someone selling their boat and moving back to Australia.

He changed out the fire extinguishers but the buyer lost all goodwill. When he can’t figure out how to operate something you can be sure my friend will not be inclined to give him any help.

P. S. I’m still in touch with most of the people who bought boats from me and years later I still help them if they need it. There was one guy who was a hard ass and tried to extract every penny, believe me I stopped answering his emails / calls pretty quickly.

[SailingHarmonie]

When we bought our boat 8 years ago, the surveyor found exactly ONE thing that needed attention, to the tune of $300. There is certainly nothing to hide. But... If I was selling this boat, you can not have that survey. It is WORTHLESS. It is 8 years old. It means nothing.

If you INSIST on having it as a condition to even look at the boat, you are telling me everything I need to know about how the rest of the deal is going to go, and I am not going down that road. So, no, you can not have it, and if that is an insurmountable problem for you I'm going to be very happy to see you out there looking for another boat playing those games with somebody else.

No knowledgable, and experienced boat buyer would even think to ask for an 11 year old survey, much less insist on having it. Just no. The only thing the seller did wrong was his initial agreement to give you the survey--instead of laughing at your request.

Dealing with unreasonable buyers who waste your time is the best reason to hire a good broker who earns his money screening out this kind of stuff.

[Sailingallday]

One story from the other side of the fence on this

When I purchased my boat, the seller had just had a deal fall through a month before. He was irritated with buyers in general, and that guy specifically. We talk, come to an agreement and he says to me - “hey rather that going through all the difficulty of setting up a survey, want me to see if I can get my hands on the survey done a month ago?”

He seemed trustworthy and straight forward. I said yes let’s see if you can get it. He sent it to me that night - don’t know if he got it from the surveyor or the seller, but either way, he was able to get it.

Survey was great. I made him an offer the next morning. We closed the deal very fast.

Not having to do the survey saved me a pile of time, some money and a bunch of hassle for the seller. In the end, I likely would have had the same surveyor doing the work anyways.