Catamaran vs Monohull... advantages, disadvantages?

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Are you SURE you have sailed a catamaran to weather? The most common description is hobby horsing punctuated by incredible bridge deck slamming.

sorry but need to ask if this is your own experience or just something you heard in the bar ?

certainly there may be some older designs that suffer in this way (just like there are some monos that are dogs too). however our personal experience is quite different...no hobby horsing...no bridgedeck slamming.

i've done many many thousands of offshore miles in monos and similar in cats and have always found the cat to be more comfortable

cheers,

[catsketcher]

The idea that all cats sail poorly to windward or pound is like most generalisations, incorrect. My cat of 22 years sails beautifully to windward, she has boards, a well designed rig, a high bridgedeck clearance (about 860mm for most of it) and heavy weight in the centre, as close to the centre of gyration as possible.

I can count 5 times in our cruising career where our cat has been the only boat sailing to windward that day, whilst up to 10 monos motor or motor sail into the wind, and we have passed literally hundreds of other sailing boats sailing into the breeze, and pounding, yeah we have pounded about 10-20 times in 22 years. Fine, rounded hulls don't tend to pound.

If you go on a Schionning, a performance cat marque, ask where the water tanks are - you will find them right next to the mast bulkhead under the seats in the bridgedeck. Mine are under the floors in pretty much the same spot. The anchor chain is led aft, about 4 metres aft for my cat and many others too. Spare fuel is located near the mast as well, getting the rotational inertia low. A lightweight solar arch and dinghy are on the back end of the boat. Heavy stuff in the middle, light stuff in the ends. By being slightly careful in a cat or a mono, you get much better motion to windward. This aint rocket science. Any mono racer knows this too, which is why the sails don't stay up front and the crew sit together when beating to windward in a long race. When racing monos I always liked the forward hands who could be quick to change the heady, even the weight of one smallish crew up the front of a 35 footer would change the boat's motion into one that caused bashing and crashing. Keep the ends light and the boat is so much better in waves. If you see a cat pitch, look for the weight, is it at the ends? If so, the poor boat may have an issue with pitching.

Anyone truly interested in cats should take advice from people who have sailed hundreds or thousands of miles in a wide range of monos and cats. If you live in an area where there are no cats that sail really well, don't think that all cats are like that. Jump on the net and look up the Schionnings, Pescotts, Whites, Woods and Outremer. Not all are pricey, especially secondhand.

There is a HUGE variety of cats with a range of sailing qualities. If you want a lovely sailing cat that can glide in light air and sail like a witch to windward, you can have one, just like in a mono. It can have a great cruising interior too. If you want one that prioritises comfort more and sailing less, you can find one too. Take a trip to the East Coast of Australia and grab a sail in Pittwater or Moreton Bay for a social race on a family cruiser that can do 10 knots to windward, or go along to Millbrook in England and talk to the Multihull Group there and get on a cat. In the US, there is less of a performance/cruiser multi scene, but chat to Kurt Hughes or local multi association and get on board and have a sail. Listening to people, like me, on the internet will not get you understanding what these boats can do and you will get the real deal from people who actually sail these boats.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

The idea that all cats sail poorly to windward or pound is like most generalisations, incorrect. My cat of 22 years sails beautifully to windward, she has boards, a well designed rig, a high bridgedeck clearance (about 860mm for most of it) and heavy weight in the centre, as close to the centre of gyration as possible.

I can count 5 times in our cruising career where our cat has been the only boat sailing to windward that day, whilst up to 10 monos motor or motor sail into the wind, and we have passed literally hundreds of other sailing boats sailing into the breeze, and pounding, yeah we have pounded about 10-20 times in 22 years. Fine, rounded hulls don't tend to pound.

If you go on a Schionning, a performance cat marque, ask where the water tanks are - you will find them right next to the mast bulkhead under the seats in the bridgedeck. Mine are under the floors in pretty much the same spot. The anchor chain is led aft, about 4 metres aft for my cat and many others too. Spare fuel is located near the mast as well, getting the rotational inertia low. A lightweight solar arch and dinghy are on the back end of the boat. Heavy stuff in the middle, light stuff in the ends. By being slightly careful in a cat or a mono, you get much better motion to windward. This aint rocket science. Any mono racer knows this too, which is why the sails don't stay up front and the crew sit together when beating to windward in a long race. When racing monos I always liked the forward hands who could be quick to change the heady, even the weight of one smallish crew up the front of a 35 footer would change the boat's motion into one that caused bashing and crashing. Keep the ends light and the boat is so much better in waves. If you see a cat pitch, look for the weight, is it at the ends? If so, the poor boat may have an issue with pitching.

Anyone truly interested in cats should take advice from people who have sailed hundreds or thousands of miles in a wide range of monos and cats. If you live in an area where there are no cats that sail really well, don't think that all cats are like that. Jump on the net and look up the Schionnings, Pescotts, Whites, Woods and Outremer. Not all are pricey, especially secondhand.

There is a HUGE variety of cats with a range of sailing qualities. If you want a lovely sailing cat that can glide in light air and sail like a witch to windward, you can have one, just like in a mono. It can have a great cruising interior too. If you want one that prioritises comfort more and sailing less, you can find one too. Take a trip to the East Coast of Australia and grab a sail in Pittwater or Moreton Bay for a social race on a family cruiser that can do 10 knots to windward, or go along to Millbrook in England and talk to the Multihull Group there and get on a cat. In the US, there is less of a performance/cruiser multi scene, but chat to Kurt Hughes or local multi association and get on board and have a sail. Listening to people, like me, on the internet will not get you understanding what these boats can do and you will get the real deal from people who actually sail these boats.

Very well said.

Catamaran vs Mono….

https://youtu.be/h2kIx1QT_xA

[donradcliffe]

If cats have taken over the sailing world in Australia, why don't they race to Hobart every year on Boxing Day? It is the pinnacle of Ozzie racing.

Don't tell me that its because the Sydney Hobart guys won't let you enter. You could have a shadow race that starts an hour later. If the all cats had survived the 1998 race, you could have proven that they are safer and faster.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If cats have taken over the sailing world in Australia, why don't they race to Hobart every year on Boxing Day? It is the pinnacle of Ozzie racing.

Don't tell me that its because the Sydney Hobart guys won't let you enter. You could have a shadow race that starts an hour later. If the all cats had survived the 1998 race, you could have proven that they are safer and faster.

Been done already back in the days of b&w and film.

[donradcliffe]

It should be an annual event. The Sydney Hobart is about the only race that says damn the weather report, the start is at 1 pm on Boxing Day.

The current Route Du Rhum, with record participation by both Multi and Monohulls, delayed the start by 3 days due to forecast weather conditions. I am of the opinion that the delay was due to the Multihull participation.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

It should be an annual event. The Sydney Hobart is about the only race that says damn the weather report, the start is at 1 pm on Boxing Day.

The current Route Du Rhum, with record participation by both Multi and Monohulls, delayed the start by 3 days due to forecast weather conditions. I am of the opinion that the delay was due to the Multihull participation.

What you mean like the IOW Round the Island Race, the start has never been cancelled except once due to Covid. These are cruising boats of all shapes and sizes and the winners are nearly always multihulls. Unless someone enters a really huge racing mono and it got slaughtered by a 26ft cat Firebird Orion.


There is no denying that multihulls now dominate all sailing events in all conditions and hold all the outright records except those reserved for mono's only.


https://www.sailspeedrecords.com/records


Now that isn't to say there are not slow multihulls but it is a proven fact that there are no fast monohulls.

[carlosproa]

Hahaha my hat to the OP to have 9 pages of people grandstanding and convincing each other why one vessel is better than the other one

Well done! [emoji23]

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

What you mean like the IOW Round the Island Race, the start has never been cancelled except once due to Covid. These are cruising boats of all shapes and sizes and the winners are nearly always multihulls. Unless someone enters a really huge racing mono and it got slaughtered by a 26ft cat Firebird Orion.


There is no denying that multihulls now dominate all sailing events in all conditions and hold all the outright records except those reserved for mono's only.


https://www.sailspeedrecords.com/records


Now that isn't to say there are not slow multihulls but it is a proven fact that there are no fast monohulls.

There is no denying the fact that the multi's you listed are seriously prone to capsizing, even with the best sailors in the world driving them. Just Google Mod 70 capsizes.

[smj]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

There is no denying the fact that the multi's you listed are seriously prone to capsizing, even with the best sailors in the world driving them. Just Google Mod 70 capsizes.

Ouch!

[Redreuben]

Since this thread has now descended to controversy Ill say,
Catamarans are for tourists, Trimarans are for sailors.

[boatman61]

And Mono's are for Seamen..

[Redreuben]

Originally Posted by boatman61

And Mono's are for Seamen..

Semen

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If cats have taken over the sailing world in Australia, why don't they race to Hobart every year on Boxing Day? It is the pinnacle of Ozzie racing.

Don't tell me that its because the Sydney Hobart guys won't let you enter. You could have a shadow race that starts an hour later. If the all cats had survived the 1998 race, you could have proven that they are safer and faster.

Don, I don't think I will ever convince you, but you pose an interesting question. Back in 1983 my trimaran was scoffed at by my sailing friends, they almost all thought I had sunstroke for cruising on a little tri, but I still raced monos.

After doing a Hobart and Laser worlds I got my next bigger tri in 1988. I did some Sydney Harbour and further racing, there were some nice boats to race against but I preferred racing in monos and cruising the multi, even though it was designed as a racer. It could fly offshore.

After launching our cat in 2000, the number of other multis had continued to increase on the Queensland coast. We were on the beach at Island Head and two mono owners were talking
"Lots more cats around now"
"Yeah, if I was to get a new boat, I would have to seriously consider one"

Every year after there would be more and more cruising cats, but the racing on Sydney Harbour is non existent and there is still a small scene in Pittwater. In Brisbane the multi racing scene is much more numerous with reasonable multi entries in the Gladstone every year.

As for why there are not more cats racing, including to Hobart. I think it is because cats are great for cruising exactly because they are fast and comfortable whereas tight fleet racing, inches apart is probably better in a slower, higher pointing, narrower and more manouvrable mono. Also the mono always rewards skill, in keeping the boat flat, reducing sail and great helming. Sometimes when I race multis, it gets to a point where I want to back off and the boat can take it, but the margin of error between staying upright and not gets too fine for me. A fast inshore race boat is really not much point, I have been slow in a Tornado race and lightning fast in a Laser, considering you end up back at the club speed is really only a relative thing, that is why Lasers keep being popular boats. Club racing monos are the same. You don't want to be too fast or it gets lonely out he front, so race what others have.

I have been tee boned quite a few times racing Lasers and small yachts, no issues, usually not even a scuff. But when racing Tornadoes, we tee boned a port tacker (Yes I dumped sheet but not enough) and blew up the bow and I hit the water so hard it hurt. But it is numbers for me, I will always treasure crossing 159 Lasers in a states, barely getting across the first and then clearing more and more - what a feeling. We just don't get that close racing in multis.

Even in the mono sailing scene, "slow" boats are doing well. My old class, the Laser, has large fleets. In the US there are nice large fleets of lightnings and slowish monos. The old Windsurfer class is making a comeback with a board slightly modified from the 50 year old design - the LT has breathed life back into a dead scene by focussing on what racing is about - being close, similar in speed, easy to operate and fun to sail.

I think monos make great racers, there are lots of boats, lots of classes all the same, can be one design and they are good inshore. They require finesse to juggle sheet and rudder, the sheethand working well with the helm all the time, crew work essential in a big blow downwind - great teamwork. You don't need that in a cat, usually just sheet on and steer. This makes them great cruisers. I think multis make fab cruisers with a bit of racing put in. That is just my own opinion but the only boats that really need speed are cruisers, they have to get somewhere. The around the bouys racers can be as fast or slow as you like, you just change the course.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^

Once again Phil has summed up the scene fairly and IMO accurately. Well done, mate!

Jim