Broken Lagoon

[rabbi]

I considered purchasing a 400 and visited a few in the med before covid. I just love what the boat has to offer.

But it has a design flaw that -if not addressed- ultimately leads to rot in the main bulkhead and loss of stability in one of the most crucial parts in a catamaran.

Looking at the used boats market I'd say only few owners are aware of this problem. Most boats neither have had their bulkheads checked, nor have they had the fix performed as per Lagoons technical notice. I found only one that has been repaired and looking at the repair quality I'd never sail that particular boat across an ocean
A 400 with dry bulkhead is a great boat for sure, one with a wet bulkhead is a desaster waiting to happen.

The 450 is a different story. I have only loosely followed this as the 450 is out of my budget and too big for my wife's comfort zone. In this case Lagoon and / or the designer underestimated the loads on some bulkheads so they folded. If this happens to boats that have rarely left the dock there is no denial that this is a true design flaw.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by rabbi

I considered purchasing a 400 and visited a few in the med before covid. I just love what the boat has to offer.

But it has a design flaw that -if not addressed- ultimately leads to rot in the main bulkhead and loss of stability in one of the most crucial parts in a catamaran.

Looking at the used boats market I'd say only few owners are aware of this problem. Most boats neither have had their bulkheads checked, nor have they had the fix performed as per Lagoons technical notice. I found only one that has been repaired and looking at the repair quality I'd never sail that particular boat across an ocean
A 400 with dry bulkhead is a great boat for sure, one with a wet bulkhead is a desaster waiting to happen.

The 450 is a different story. I have only loosely followed this as the 450 is out of my budget and too big for my wife's comfort zone. In this case Lagoon and / or the designer underestimated the loads on some bulkheads so they folded. If this happens to boats that have rarely left the dock there is no denial that this is a true design flaw.

you are absolutely right. Level of arrogance i have seen from L 400 owners regarding fix.

In our case there was no damage, instead going for "lagoon will pay fix" I opted for making area dry. Hence no weakening of structure, no damage after 9 years.

L 450 was lagoon cash cow larger profit margin than L 400 but looks like they got bit too profit oriented.

[rabbi]

If your 400 bulkhead is bone dry with no pre-existing damage you have a keeper. I have the feeling this isn't the case for the majority of boats on the used market and the situation will only get worse over time.

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

L 450 was lagoon cash cow larger profit margin than L 400 but looks like they got bit too profit oriented.

I don't think lagoon did this for the purpose of maximizing profits. Someone made a mistake in the design and strength calculation process. Sh!t happens.

Lagoon makes some great boats (or they used to make them, as I don't like their current models). But we should keep a realistic view of the issues that do exist. Acting like a Tesla Fanboy doesn't help anyone.

[rabbi]

I forgot: kudos to lagoon for accepting responsibility, at least for the 400. I expect they will do the same for the 450, even if just because they realize that they cant screw customers in the Facebook age.

I am more puzzled by their way of tackljng the escape hatch problem. Maybe because they consider it the hatch manufacturer's problem and not theirs. Or maybe because they think it is unlikely that someone will sue them after a boat has been lost due to a hatch popping out, as evidence of the problem will be lost, too.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by rabbi

I forgot: kudos to lagoon for accepting responsibility, at least for the 400. I expect they will do the same for the 450, even if just because they realize that they cant screw customers in the Facebook age.

I am more puzzled by their way of tackljng the escape hatch problem. Maybe because they consider it the hatch manufacturer's problem and not theirs. Or maybe because they think it is unlikely that someone will sue them after a boat has been lost due to a hatch popping out, as evidence of the problem will be lost, too.

i have seen solid fixes for L 400 that will not go worse.

Regarding escape hatch, it is all cats with GOIOT hatches... i think there is GOIOT recall active ?

I installed fix (that needs to swim in sika, not just screws) and decided at next haulout to sikaflex the whole window in the same style. Confident it will work as all my water deflectors under bridgedeck use sika 295 only, no screws for many years now. Dont like idea of glassing or screws.

[CatNewBee]

I think every boat gets pretty much exposed to stress on the structure over time, that leads to material fatigue and detorration (rott, osmosis, delamination, corrosion, stress cracks, separation, leaks...) It needs inspection, maintenance and fixing once the problem starts to show up.

This is regardless of make or model.

[smj]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I think every boat gets pretty much exposed to stress on the structure over time, that leads to material fatigue and detorration (rott, osmosis, delamination, corrosion, stress cracks, separation, leaks...) It needs inspection, maintenance and fixing once the problem starts to show up.

This is regardless of make or model.

We’ve owned a few cats that were rode hard and put up wet, and none of them showed any damage comparable to what we’ve seen in the 450’s. Not even close.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I think every boat gets pretty much exposed to stress on the structure over time, that leads to material fatigue and detorration (rott, osmosis, delamination, corrosion, stress cracks, separation, leaks...) It needs inspection, maintenance and fixing once the problem starts to show up.

This is regardless of make or model.

If that’s what you want to settle with sure but I think that’s a really low standard and means there is no thought to safety margins or longevity.
My boat is 33 years old and sure systems have failed and needed replacement but basic hull structure and bulkheads are still in perfect shape. Boats are enough work but if hidden structural issues are the norm then forget it

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I think every boat gets pretty much exposed to stress on the structure over time, that leads to material fatigue and detorration (rott, osmosis, delamination, corrosion, stress cracks, separation, leaks...) It needs inspection, maintenance and fixing once the problem starts to show up.

This is regardless of make or model.

I completely disagree for these particular issues. Both are simply design errors that cause structural failures.

The designer should have never designed a water trap in the 400, and should have beefed up the specs for the bulkheads in the 450.

These things happen. It's not the end of the world but also nothing we should ignore, or let Lagoon get away with just because we love their boats.

[Sand crab]

Aren’t there many manufacturers with a spotless record on structural integrity. Voyage, older Leopards, Catana maybe, Outie, Seawind etc. I think Seawind had an issue with a fairly new boat but they jumped right in and fixed it. Haven’t heard of any more problems since.
Aren’t the Lagoon 380s considered pretty well built?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Aren’t there many manufacturers with a spotless record on structural integrity. Voyage, older Leopards, Catana maybe, Outie, Seawind etc. I think Seawind had an issue with a fairly new boat but they jumped right in and fixed it. Haven’t heard of any more problems since.
Aren’t the Lagoon 380s considered pretty well built?

Catana had problems in the early 2000’s I believe

[moonmist]

If it were a plane, general aviation or airliner, it would be grounded and probably never fly again.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by smj

Catana had problems in the early 2000’s I believe

Of major structural components that hold a boat together?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Of major structural components that hold a boat together?

It’s been many years but if I recall correctly it was also problems with the bulkhead tabbing breaking loose.

[moonmist]

Just to lighten the thread and go back to early fibre glass use in boats. The storied Bermuda 40 came about when eight sailors from the Western Long commissioned Bill Trip to design a boat to race in the Bermuda Race ( he having success with the Bock Island 40, among other successes) these were mostly Doctors and Lawyers and did put in a lot of creature comforts in the design. I was friends with one of those eight, Norv he had hull # 4 Firefly ( in good hands today on the Chesapeake with a friend of Norv's) With the design in hand they needed a builder, Henry Hinckley was on the short list. My friend Norv claimed to tell Henry at his dinning room table " sign this contract this will make you a millionaire" ( the original 8 only got a residual on about 10 or 18 of the following boats) Henry won that one!!! The boats turned out slow... not competitive. Henry had no laminate schedule, no idea how much glass was in the boats, just let the crew layup the glass Henry probably did not like the smell. But the boats have structural integrity. We can do better today it is hard to find a accuse for the Lagoon 450