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Sand crab · 08-06-2021, 08:52

I think Lagoon has made over 1000 of these making it the largest single production run of cats ever except possibly surpassed by the Gemini. That's a lot of goodwill for them to deal with.

owly · 08-06-2021, 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I think Lagoon has made over 1000 of these making it the largest single production run of cats ever except possibly surpassed by the Gemini. That's a lot of goodwill for them to deal with.

Obviously not a businessman...... or you'd know that just a single pissed off customer outweighs a ton of good will.........And there appear to be quite a few facing the same issue............

more · 08-06-2021, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by owly

This goes far beyond the small print of "hull warranty".... The company probably is not responsible legally............. But reputation is far more important than fine print legalities. If all their boats break up a few years past warranty, it is likely to destroy the company in the end. Who's going to buy boats knowing that they will have zero resale value? Charter companies like auto rental companies buy their fleet with the idea that the boats will have enough value 5 years (or whatever time frame) down the road that they will only have to amortize that depreciation. If they depreciate to virtually zero in that time, they will lose money, and have to greatly increase charter rates losing business.

I don't see anybody lining up to buy off charter Lagoons after reading about this and watching the Utube...

i don't bay lagoon 45 end story. but new lagoon 46 is good also lagoon 42,40 is not affected.
and damn all lagoon is excellent for charter.

Simi 60 · 08-06-2021, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by more

i don't bay lagoon 45 end story. but new lagoon 46 is good also lagoon 42,40 is not affected.
and damn all lagoon is excellent for charter.

How do you know new boats are not affected?
Have you pulled them apart and inspected bulkhead (packing crate) construction?
Give them a few years, report back.

Sand crab · 08-06-2021, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by owly

Obviously not a businessman...... or you'd know that just a single pissed off customer outweighs a ton of good will.........And there appear to be quite a few facing the same issue............

Lighten up Owly, I agree with you. I was making a sarcastic comment in reference to your earlier comment, "The court of good will and cooperation will likely yield far better results than a court of law".

Fixing a 1000 boats, that's a lot of good will.

arsenelupiga · 08-06-2021, 16:13

i remember similar fearmongering internet activity regarding SD 50 saildrives. I still have them and they are in good conditions. Overdoing fearmongering is counterproductive. Looks like youtuber trying more than he can chew.

Every boat can be trashed by sailing it too hard.

It is nearly 100 % certain that every boat was overcanvassed at some point. Proving opposite is impossible and 'brekages due to sailing with too much sails' is in my opinion impossible to counter.

See this from lagoon manual for reefing guidelines.
"Failure to follow the above recommendations can be dangerous for the
boat and the crew, and the manufacturer cannot be held responsible in
the event of an accident."

Simi 60 · 08-06-2021, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Every boat can be trashed by sailing it too hard.

But these lagoons haven't been trashed by sailing to hard*
They have been trashed through crap design and crap build

Show me a lagoon that ever gets sailed hard, you know, like a crowther, schionning, prescott, oram, tennant and and and does regularly, none of which have bulkhead breakages.

CatNewBee · 08-06-2021, 16:31

How many 450's were hit by the last hurricanes? I saw a couple of them still in restauration in St. Martin recently. There were whole charter fleets grounded and resurrected, so 10 catamarans in Caribbean waters with similar issues do not mean much to me. It would be only interesting to me if they were not hurricane salvages like Parley (you never know) .

When you see the damages in the hulls and sugarscoops of this wrecks - like being hit by a torpedo - or flipped upside down and trashed the upper deck - you can immagine what insane forces were into play, a cracked bulkhead is the least problem. But they will float again soon and will go back in charter service maybe next year. They look like new after buffing and a fresh gelcoat...

smj · 08-06-2021, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

How many 450's were hit by the last hurricanes? I saw a couple of them still in restauration in St. Martin recently. There were whole charter fleets grounded and resurrected, so 10 catamarans in Caribbean waters with similar issues do not mean much to me. It would be only interesting to me if they were not hurricane salvages like Parley (you never know) .

When you see the damages in the hulls and sugarscoops of this wrecks - like being hit by a torpedo - or flipped upside down and trashed the upper deck - you can immagine what insane forces were into play, a cracked bulkhead is the least problem. But they will float again soon and will go back in charter service maybe next year. They look like new after buffing and a fresh gelcoat...

Go to the Lagoon 450 f/s bulkhead issue Facebook page to view plenty of the 450’with this problem that haven’t encountered a hurricane.

arsenelupiga · 08-06-2021, 16:39

do not think i am against what you do. Slackness in production or design should be addressed by manufacturer. However we see later this is not happening in any field.

Here is bit of background as I saw it when shopping for boat. I got excellent price and extremley well built - did do lots of gymnastics lately to see bulkheads. At the time of purchase there was another anti L 400 session going. But back then i didnt woory about internet so went ahead and bought at first sight.

There was significant anti Lagoon 400 propaganda going on on internet until they stopped production. Lagoon itself issued polar diagrams, that are mediocre to say the least. Also jib size was reported incorrect at 28m2, although it is 35m2. Lagoon 400 is excellent sailing boat, one can see people being upset here when i mention L400 abilities - just browse couple threads of tacking angles etc. However they rely on that propaganda docs that are incorrect.

Lagoon pushed L 450 instead of L 400 because it is nearly same amount of work but they can charge more hence margin is way better.

If there was not this propaganda launched we would see today 1000+ of L 400, and much less of 450ies. So maybe you right - they tried to squeeze 450 max profits.

**JPA Cate** · 08-06-2021, 16:42

This has been an interesting thread to read.

In the long history of people taking unsuitable boats and cruising them, I think Brent and Anna stand out for doing what most used to do: they took the boat they had, looked at what might possibly go wrong, and FIXED IT BEFORE IT BROKE! Good on 'em!

Jim did the same to his Yankee that we took to HI and back to SF in '83, and when Jim sold it, the surveyor commented on it, that Jim had fixed it before it broke, and it was better than new. Quite a complement for a 10 yr. old production boat.

To me, what's important to come out of this thread is that if you know any owners of the model, try to encourage them to fix it before it breaks, too. Boats do go aground, people do make mistakes or decisions to leave them in cyclone/hurricane areas, and the storms will trash them if that's where they are. But for Mom and Pop cruising, it is within most owners' capabilities to make the fixes happen, either by doing the work themselves, or hiring it done. It requires the will, and understanding the seriousness of the problem.

Ann

arsenelupiga · 08-06-2021, 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simi 60

But these lagoons haven't been trashed by sailing to hard*
They have been trashed through crap design and crap build

Show me a lagoon that ever gets sailed hard, you know, like a crowther, schionning, prescott, oram, tennant and and and does regularly, none of which have bulkhead breakages.

Our boat went thru 30 k nm sailed from EU and has zero issues. We average 6.5 kn on passages and i expect this to increase to 7 kn with new sails.

moonmist · 08-06-2021, 16:46

These boats have serious issues ( Structural integrity .... It assures that the construction will perform its designed function during reasonable use.......Structural failure refers to the loss of structural integrity) this design has failed all too often.

CatNewBee · 08-06-2021, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonmist

These boats have serious issues ( Structural integrity .... It assures that the construction will perform its designed function during reasonable use.......Structural failure refers to the loss of structural integrity) this design has failed all too often.

I don't agree, in every bigger bay we meet Lagoons afloat in all ages, they seem not to disintegrate, I doubt any owner has done structural repairs on them yet. There would be a lot of fatal accidents if the structure is so poor, but they cross oceans in all conditions and survive.

There may be some boats with issues, that need to be addressed, but even 10 boats out of 1000 built are only 1%, and they would not even had noticed it without the hype. They still sail and float.