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Old 13-06-2021, 17:43   #136
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
I think every boat gets pretty much exposed to stress on the structure over time, that leads to material fatigue and detorration (rott, osmosis, delamination, corrosion, stress cracks, separation, leaks...) It needs inspection, maintenance and fixing once the problem starts to show up.

This is regardless of make or model.
This is certainly not true of monohulls and I struggle to believe that it's true of catamarans.
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Old 13-06-2021, 17:47   #137
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Re: Broken Lagoon

An earlier model Lagoon having bulkhead problems.

https://youtu.be/emEcJW42SA8
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:32   #138
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Re: Broken Lagoon

I recall Cat Impi (L440) has donne some structural enforcements and redesigns, but not sure if it was just to increase rigidity or to fix issues with the bulkheads. ...
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:45   #139
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Broken Lagoon

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I recall Cat Impi (L440) has donne some structural enforcements and redesigns, but not sure if it was just to increase rigidity or to fix issues with the bulkheads. ...


Please refer to post #25
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:52   #140
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post




Regarding escape hatch, it is all cats with GOIOT hatches... i think there is GOIOT recall active ?



...

Not all GOIOT hatches, just some, according to an email I received from Grand Large Yachting that stated in part “the ones involved are those made between 2014 & 2018”.
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Old 13-06-2021, 20:13   #141
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Not all GOIOT hatches, just some, according to an email I received from Grand Large Yachting that stated in part “the ones involved are those made between 2014 & 2018”.
i heard L 42 2010 had this issue. So it is playing it safe to assume all fixed non-openable hatches. Issue pops out after 10 years or so.
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Old 13-06-2021, 20:17   #142
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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Originally Posted by Muaddib1116 View Post
This is certainly not true of monohulls and I struggle to believe that it's true of catamarans.
If boats are driven hard or with multiple ocean crossing is different than coastal cruising. I remember inspecting french performance cat 4 years old that owner claimed 350 nm days. Built really well. However there were structural cracks around mast and elsewhere.

Sea is too powerful. Anyone thinking differently is set for nasty surprise.
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Old 13-06-2021, 21:51   #143
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Re: Broken Lagoon

Sea is powerful however well built boats can stand up to these rigors
You do pay for this ....however in most cases high production good enough boats usually do ok but stick with low latitudes at the right time of the year.
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Old 13-06-2021, 22:19   #144
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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Sea is powerful however well built boats can stand up to these rigors
You do pay for this ....however in most cases high production good enough boats usually do ok but stick with low latitudes at the right time of the year.
It sure helps if boat is built well however in my opinion is more important sailor skills and preparedness and mindset.

Lagoon 400 that was years ago trapped in 20 m breaking seas returning to eu from carib....

problems started when ropes got to props and leak in one engine room and engines died.

Then they called help and got 300m tanker that smashed the boat when they approached.

I do not see how 'properly' built boat could end up any different.

The main issue was operator error as it has not prepared boat for storm and wrong wave got ropes loose. Kind of 'cross fingers' approach.

For L 400 type of boat one needs active management of storm. Sea anchor i think is not appropriate as boat too bulky. This is one true advantage of performance cats.
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Old 14-06-2021, 00:50   #145
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Re: Broken Lagoon

This is very long, but I hope CF members read this as it will add to this conversation dealing with variables that either have not been mentioned or discussed.

As most things in life turn to money, either in cost or availability of it, this single factor will most likely drive the whole situation for all parties. Both Lagoon and Owners have much to lose and in the end one or the other will lose the most. That is inevitable.

Public relations for Lagoon, which in the end is a financial matter, will be or is the driving factor behind the scenes for the L450 bulkhead situation.

All the arguing of opinions back and forth about Colin/Parley, hurricane damage, water ingress, shody work during production really makes little difference. Someone will always say their cat is perfect and its other owners are at fault. All the posts show how people in the world and THIER own personal views, knowledge and experiences, dictate how they feel about this situation. In the end it matters not.

Lagoon - the future of the company may or may not hang in the balance due to this issue. Prospective buyers who know about this situation will pay attention to how it is handled and that may or may not affect a purchase. They will NOT purchase a used L450 for most likely quite a long time. Also prospective owners need to worry about resale values down the road. Its been mentioned about the abundance of Lagoons in charter. Well if the charter companies cannot resell the cats at the end of five years, without taking massive losses or being stuck with the cats, then that is a huge issue. Accounting could help them if the situation is right. If any of the values of any of Lagoon's cats, which it will affect all of them, are affected in any way other than natural depreciation then the companies future sales are in jeopardy.

Possible liability for Lagoon IF they do the repairs. Even then owners may class action the issue for other expenses/time loss/value loss. A repaired cat will always be a repaired cat and its value will be less. Most likely not much difference than a hurricane vessel. Bulkheads and its ensuing mess with cosmetics being repaired is MAJOR.

1. IF INS companies put the no passage clause into policies or any other clauses, to the point of not insuring, this will absolutely put the whole weight on Lagoon which they must respond.

2. Owners/Charter losing time for the cat for use. Each situation would be different but liveaboards would have to be compensated for alternative housing during repairs vs. charter companies possibly being compensated for non use time.

Arguments can be made for quick repairs. But what if the boatyard cannot start work, get materials, etc... There will be, in places, those issues so the following is relevant. This is a car manufacturer issue on steroids due to small market, worldwide, and its either someone's home, business, or pleasure craft. Too many people have to skip a holiday due to this issue or pre-planned passage they will be pissed. Let alone if a repair keeps them in a hurricane zone and INS wont insure or will increase cost.

3. Depreciation loss due to repairs. No matter what happens these cats WILL BE valued lower due to the issue and potential for more to happen. Damaged goods at this point no matter what.

4. Repair quality all over the world is an obvious issue, and maybe travel/time expenses if Lagoon only wants the work done in certain places.

L450 Owners - Remember there is around 1k owners of these cats. Now that the issue is fairly well known, or potential of, do any of these owners honestly feel safe on their boats for an ocean crossing. I know I wouldn't. Its not even an issue of "are the bulkheads are broken or not" its an issue of could they break and if so would I possibly have to abandon the vessel in a storm at sea. (yes I know anything can break, but known potential issues would compound that) Couple that with the now worry, even if their cat is still perfect, of the cat either not being able to be sold or most likely highly discounted which would or could be a huge financial loss, that no own wants.

So regardless of the actual situation at hand, Lagoon either HAS TOO properly repair all broken cats and reinforce non broken ones, or fix a few and ignore the rest. Doesn't matter the cost of repairs it either must be done or not. If not, then Lagoon risks their whole business model and potentially will cease to exist. Since i believe Beneteau Groupe owns them it could even tarnish their reputation, so they also have a vested interest in the situation.

For Colin/Parley -- Lagoon actually helped themselves a bit here with helping Colin for what appeared to be good will help by the company. However, if Lagoon (which is a possibility), knew about these issue years ago and gave that good will to tamp down any possibility for this to exponentially grow into a larger issue, that will greatly increase the liability for them and bad bad public relations. Colin is tackling a situation on his boat most likely better than what most yards will do for an official repair. The official repairs will be all over the place for quality and will have issues in and of themselves. We all know not all work is equal, especially in the boating world (wiring for example). Colin is faced with publicly joining the Civil Lawsuit and that will end any and all help he is currently getting from Lagoon. His best interest is to document the proper repairs, time involved, materials involved, and all other logistical costs/time he has had to endure due to this. Then he will have a repaired, seaworthy cat and continue on his way. Towards the end of the lawsuit, if there is truly going to be one, then join it for financial compensation. Or he could work with Lagoon for financial help, and provide them with all the information and in the end he wont have a financial windfall, but would be in the good graces of Lagoon and get his investment back out of it. That IMHO would be his best way forward.

Repairs Parley - one of my largest interests for this ordeal is HOW in the world is he going to get all of the interior back into place. I would trust his repairs behind all the cosmetic portions, but some of the repairs will be too large to properly re-install the cosmetic pieces in the same position as before.

Cosmetic wood trim -- these are having to be totally cut up and removed to properly repair. I am pretty sure you cannot just put them back and somehow make the cut lines disappear. For Colin's boat, he will make do as best as possible and be happy. For the other 999 owners this WILL NOT be acceptable. It must be returned to factory condition. That i fear will be impossible without manufacturing new pieces and somehow replacing them.

So the crux of the matter is that Lagoon will have to satisfactorily provide the means and compensation to make this situation go away. Obviously not all owners will financially remain the same and will lose money and time. Other owners will live in stress for the potential issues and sell their cats at a loss. Lagoon likely can and possibly will satisfy the majority of owners in the end and this will not destroy finances for all involved. If Lagoon only fixes a few cats and ignores the rest, a lot of financial woes will ensue on all sides.

I hope this was worth reading, i tried to capture all angles of the issue without going down a rabbit hole and get into any personal opinions. (which some of mine likely are)
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Old 14-06-2021, 03:55   #146
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Broken Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
If boats are driven hard or with multiple ocean crossing is different than coastal cruising. I remember inspecting french performance cat 4 years old that owner claimed 350 nm days. Built really well. However there were structural cracks around mast and elsewhere.



Sea is too powerful. Anyone thinking differently is set for nasty surprise.


Ok then why are Lagoons CE certified “ocean” then if they are only up to coastal??
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Old 14-06-2021, 04:18   #147
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pirate Re: Broken Lagoon

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Ok then why are Lagoons CE certified “ocean” then if they are only up to coastal??
Because its a self regulated standard well below the old Lloyds 100A standard that ocean going boats should be built to... Just to expensive in the conveyor belt boat building industry.
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Old 14-06-2021, 06:36   #148
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Broken Lagoon

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Because its a self regulated standard well below the old Lloyds 100A standard that ocean going boats should be built to... Just to expensive in the conveyor belt boat building industry.


A standard largely promoted by in Europe by the British Marine Industry Federation largely to avoid the need to build to internal French and Italian standards

The ISO standards associated with CE marking which assures complicity with the RCD , is not self certification , a “ notified body “ is involved. However most large companies have the certification in house but that is not quite the same.

Of course who is to say they are actually built to the ISO standards. Manufacturers are notorious for taking shortcuts especially on high volume designs. No doubt in time it will transpire that lagoon are simply skimping
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Old 14-06-2021, 06:42   #149
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Re: Broken Lagoon

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
i heard L 42 2010 had this issue. So it is playing it safe to assume all fixed non-openable hatches. Issue pops out after 10 years or so.
Are you talking about a 420/421 because the L42s are much newer and are the replacements for the older model.
Here's a fun link to Lagoons older discontinued models courtesy of the Waybackmachine. That website allows you to surf older discontinued pages. It's a shame that Lagoon doesn't show that anymore.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170701...modeles_fr.php

That video link by Smj a few posts back was a 2005 L410s2.
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Old 14-06-2021, 06:52   #150
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Re: Broken Lagoon

If you go back to this page from 2013 they show the number of units built of each model. Click on Lagoon 410 and 410S2 and it shows 283 units.



https://web.archive.org/web/20130912...modeles_fr.php
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