15M Catamaran Capsize off Portugal

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by smj

The PDQ is a lightweight foam cored cat with some built in flotation chambers.
Why are you confused as to what REALLY happened? The article was written by the owner who was present for the entire process. Do you not take her for her word?

The owner said he thought they hit something but it seems to me that it would take a pretty hard impact to cause a 50’ cat to flip and this hard impact would cause some pretty substantial damage to at least one of the hulls that would be easily seen in photos. It’s very common for people in all kinds of traumatic situations to not have the most accurate perception of what’s actually happening. Interview 6 drivers and passengers involved in a 2 car collision and you’ll have about 5 different explanations of what the “real” cause was and all will honestly believe theirs is the right one. So, at this point I wouldn’t yet rule anything out.

[smj]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

The owner said he thought they hit something but it seems to me that it would take a pretty hard impact to cause a 50’ cat to flip and this hard impact would cause some pretty substantial damage to at least one of the hulls that would be easily seen in photos. It’s very common for people in all kinds of traumatic situations to not have the most accurate perception of what’s actually happening. Interview 6 drivers and passengers involved in a 2 car collision and you’ll have about 5 different explanations of what the “real” cause was and all will honestly believe theirs is the right one. So, at this point I wouldn’t yet rule anything out.

My comment that you quoted was about the PDQ 36, not the TS5 that pitchpoled.
I can see a 50’ cat pitchpoling if it’s sailing in the mid teens then comes to a sudden stop. I can’t see a 50’ cat flipping in 16-20 kts of wind with a double reefed main and jib.
I haven’t seen any close up pictures of the bows that would show the damage. If you have please post them. As I said earlier, the bottom paint is black and so is the carbon fiber construction, so maybe hard to make out the damage from the long distance photos?

[Joli]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes.

I found this very interesting article: https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/c...magined-107508

They talk about the Vendee Globe as well and give some support to the cynical thinking that some of the UFO encounters might be invented rather than real. (I'm sure it's better for the brand if 'it broke' due to some external unavoidable reason )

Anyway. Significant support for the idea that the risk of running into (specifically) a container is really small. And they're talking about some products that can make sure the containers sink if they are lost.

Swell.

We've fallen off the backs of waves so hard you would swear you hit something, for us it's just too much speed for the sea state.

Not saying the subject of the post didn't hit something.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Its not as if this is a one off incident.

How closely related is the TS50 that capsizedof Maillaig to the TS5?
The posters that are claiming that a collision alone will cause the capsize need to explain the physics.
With most of the vessels mass in the hulls and not in the mast there is very little roll moment generated, so the sail force is going to have to do the heavy lifting, so to speak.

Remembering all the underwater appendages are intact.

This should be interesting.

[smj]

Most catamaran pitchpoles are due to running into the back of a wave. The wave stops the cat and the apparent wind suddenly builds pushing the cat over. I’m guessing hitting a submerged object could stop the cat even quicker than the back of a wave?
For the underwater appendages to be torn of the cat would have to ride over the submerged object. Considering the TS5 has reverse bows it’s entirely possible the cat stopped dead in the water at impact instead of riding over the object .

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

...Remembering all the underwater appendages are intact.

This should be interesting.

I only see one centerboard. The other could have been lifted, or it could be sheared off.


I will offer one possibility. The boat was pushing hard, with one hull flying or nearly so (the difference can be small). The leeward foil hit something, and the off-center force caused the boat to instantly bear off. This will cause the boat to power up and go over in a few seconds, if it was already near hull flying. It would be very difficult to de-power fast enough in the confusion.



If you hit one foil on a cat at speed it will yaw violently to that side. Been there, not guessing about that.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by smj

The PDQ is a lightweight foam cored cat with some built in flotation chambers.
Why are you confused as to what REALLY happened? The article was written by the owner who was present for the entire process. Do you not take her for her word?

No, I was not doubting the owner's story, so calm down a bit. My question is what mechanism allowed the boat to continue to float when punched full of holes, and you have answered that question, so thank you for the info.


My thoughts had been that simple floatation chambers don't work well when holed. Foam cores and foam filled chambers do.

Jim

[smj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No, I was not doubting the owner's story, so calm down a bit. My question is what mechanism allowed the boat to continue to float when punched full of holes, and you have answered that question, so thank you for the info.





My thoughts had been that simple floatation chambers don't work well when holed. Foam cores and foam filled chambers do.



Jim

Perfectly calm Jim. Reread your post, maybe you didn’t come across as intended.
I personally don’t like the idea of foam filled chambers as they always seem to get waterlogged, even when closed cell.
The PDQ has empty chambers built out of cored panel so if the chamber were to get holed you would at least have some floatation in the structure.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No, I was not doubting the owner's story, so calm down a bit. My question is what mechanism allowed the boat to continue to float when punched full of holes, and you have answered that question, so thank you for the info.


My thoughts had been that simple floatation chambers don't work well when holed. Foam cores and foam filled chambers do.

Jim

The PDQ, depending on the specific build, has a LOT of chambers. Mine has 2 forward and 2 aft, in both hulls. There are large crash tanks fore and aft, plus secondary watertight bulkheads 5 feet further back that hold the engines and through hulls (all of the through hulls are bulk headed). Less than half of the length reaches the floor. In a sense, there are 4 bilges in each hull, for a total of 8 bilges.



The problem with foam-filled chambers is that they tend to get full of water over time and get heavy. The foam breaks down.

[owly]

The utter irresponsibility and incompetence here is unbelievable!! Not only did they prevent the owners from personally making sure the boat was secured for towing, but they ignored their advice about securing the hatches from inside. Then literally towed it under, ignoring the list caused by their own carelessness even after it was obvious that a hatch had come open.... and this was the USCG!! The lesson here is never accept help / rescue unless all hope is lost. If the skipper had retained command of the boat under tow, taking responsibility for it and remaining aboard rather than walking away and handing total responsibility over to the Coast Guard, this would not have happened. If you die due to well intentioned first aid incompetently delivered it's hard for next of kin to blame the good Samaritan.....

Originally Posted by smj

The Adventure Ends (greatly snipped)

This column was very difficult for me to write. On March 19, Phil and I watched in horror as the Coast

Guard shot a thousand rounds of 50 caliber machine gun shells into our sinking boat so she would not be

remain a hazard to navigation. She had been listing severely to starboard for several hours and had finally

flipped over as she was being towed behind the Coast Guard Cutter Northland.

Three days earlier, we had left Isla Mujeres, Mexico, bound for Florida. We were motoring rather than


clear and we knew we were going to lose her. Several hours later, she had flipped completely over.

At that point, the captain told us that they could not leave her floating in the middle of the ocean. We

were still many hours from Key West and he said they had no choice but to sink her completely. The

machine gun barrage lasted nearly an hour. She still didn’t totally sink until they sent a crew out with fire

axes to finish her off.

We arrived in Key West the next morning. We had lost everything on the boat except what we took with

us: two changes of clothes, our passports and our telephones. Phil also had the foresight to grab his

wallet. We had assumed we would be getting back on board when we arrived in Key West.

Now back home in Indiana, we have spent our time trying to make sense of what happened, shopping for

new summer clothes, and making lists for the insurance company of all our personal property that went

down with the boat. Our hearts are broken, but we are thankful to be safe, and life goes on. I cannot

imagine a future that does not include sailing. Phil is already talking about getting an RV and continuing

our adventures on land. Maybe we will compromise and do both.

I have enjoyed writing about our travels and have appreciated your kind comments. When we get ready

to continue our adventures, you will be the first to know.

[owly]

People who buy performance boats generally want performance, and are likely to push them to the limits, or at least very hard for that thrill of speed we all love. It is very likely that the cause of this disaster had to do with speed.. at least to some extent. UFOs are a good argument against plumb or reverse bows. Conventional bows with a lot of overhang will be more likely to ride over something, and they are also dryer, but tend to pitch more, but at the same time they have more flotation if you bury a bow.


In any case there is a price to performance, and that price includes higher risk. The interstate where I live is posted 80mph. The other night I was driving home at 70, with people passing me like I was standing still..... some probably approaching 100 mph in the dark with no lighting other than headlights. At 70, I was on edge, on high alert due to passing through an area where deer are constantly crossing the road. When those guys pulling gooseneck trailers passed me doing well in excess of 80, I couldn't help but think what would happen if they hit a deer or elk at that speed.... I've seen the gooseneck break away and come clear through the cab in wrecks like that.


*** too fast for conditions they rightly call it ****


There is no cure for stupid except one that's very permanent...winning the coveted "Darwin Award".

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by owly

When those guys pulling gooseneck trailers passed me doing well in excess of 80, I couldn't help but think what would happen if they hit a deer or elk at that speed....

Elk might be ugly, but a deer is pretty much just a "thump" at speed in a heavy truck. Last person I know who hit a deer at 70-ish in a large, heavy pickup just had a thump (passenger wasn't watching and asked if they'd hit a squirrel). Pulled over and found some front end damage to the truck. Deer was found launched 100+ feet off the side of the road.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by owly

People who buy performance boats generally want performance, and are likely to push them to the limits, or at least very hard for that thrill of speed we all love. It is very likely that the cause of this disaster had to do with speed.. at least to some extent. UFOs are a good argument against plumb or reverse bows. Conventional bows with a lot of overhang will be more likely to ride over something, and they are also dryer, but tend to pitch more, but at the same time they have more flotation if you bury a bow.


In any case there is a price to performance, and that price includes higher risk. The interstate where I live is posted 80mph. The other night I was driving home at 70, with people passing me like I was standing still..... some probably approaching 100 mph in the dark with no lighting other than headlights. At 70, I was on edge, on high alert due to passing through an area where deer are constantly crossing the road. When those guys pulling gooseneck trailers passed me doing well in excess of 80, I couldn't help but think what would happen if they hit a deer or elk at that speed.... I've seen the gooseneck break away and come clear through the cab in wrecks like that.


*** too fast for conditions they rightly call it ****


There is no cure for stupid except one that's very permanent...winning the coveted "Darwin Award".

If you hit a deer with a truck always try to take the hit in the center of the truck. Don't swerve radically most people that die due to interaction with animals on the road do so by rolling or flipping due to radical movement of the vehicle. If their gooseneck hitch comes loose and goes through the cab like you describe something was not done correctly. From not properly locking hitch not using safety chains or even possibly but not likely improperly installed hitch on the truck side. However there is no excuse for the excess of speed .

https://darwinawards.com/

[owly]

I'm not proud to claim that I've probably hit more deer in the last 40 years than you have. Your advice about taking them dead center is absolutely foolish. You take them with a corner, which throws them off to the side. You might go over them, but your damage if you keep it on the road will be far less. A center hit usually means having to be towed home because the radiator was wiped out... and I've seen them go through the windshield. I've also seen them go down, lodging under a vehicle rendering it uncontrollable, causing a secondary wreck. I've lost count of how many I've hit, mostly with little or no damage. In every case I choose a corner. It's the hard point, where the least damage is likely... a fender, a grill, a headlight & signal and a bumper, maybe a hood. I'll never forget one night driving in that gray dusk when you can't see anything.... traveling only about 50 in an area I knew was infested. A man in a Lincoln tailgating me impatiently, oncoming traffic on a two lane wouldn't dim. Traffic cleared, and there was a doe I couldn't avoid. I chose the drive side corner in that split second, knocked her down and went over her with the Aerostar I was driving at the time.... only damage was the under bumper spoiler torn loose. The guy tailgating me took her dead center, went across the left barrow pit, through the barb wire fence, through a large irrigation ditch, and ended up in a hay field.... Car totaled, driver with minor injuries. I didn't laugh in his face or call him an idiot, but he caused his own wreck from pure stupidity. Zero time to react. Poor judgment and bad choices cause most of these accidents.



Rules of thumb like "take it dead center and don't try to avoid it" are idiotic. I would have wrecked many many vehicles over the years if I'd followed the "don't take evasive action" rule. Calculated evasive action is far different from a panic swerve. By all means if you are not capable of maintaining calm control follow those rules... they apply to many if not most people.

Originally Posted by newhaul

If you hit a deer with a truck always try to take the hit in the center of the truck. Don't swerve radically most people that die due to interaction with animals on the road do so by rolling or flipping due to radical movement of the vehicle. If their gooseneck hitch comes loose and goes through the cab like you describe something was not done correctly. From not properly locking hitch not using safety chains or even possibly but not likely improperly installed hitch on the truck side. However there is no excuse for the excess of speed .

https://darwinawards.com/

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by owly

I'm not proud to claim that I've probably hit more deer in the last 40 years than you have. Your advice about taking them dead center is absolutely foolish. You take them with a corner, which throws them off to the side. You might go over them, but your damage if you keep it on the road will be far less. A center hit usually means having to be towed home because the radiator was wiped out... and I've seen them go through the windshield. I've also seen them go down, lodging under a vehicle rendering it uncontrollable, causing a secondary wreck. I've lost count of how many I've hit, mostly with little or no damage. In every case I choose a corner. It's the hard point, where the least damage is likely... a fender, a grill, a headlight & signal and a bumper, maybe a hood. I'll never forget one night driving in that gray dusk when you can't see anything.... traveling only about 50 in an area I knew was infested. A man in a Lincoln tailgating me impatiently, oncoming traffic on a two lane wouldn't dim. Traffic cleared, and there was a doe I couldn't avoid. I chose the drive side corner in that split second, knocked her down and went over her with the Aerostar I was driving at the time.... only damage was the under bumper spoiler torn loose. The guy tailgating me took her dead center, went across the left barrow pit, through the barb wire fence, through a large irrigation ditch, and ended up in a hay field.... Car totaled, driver with minor injuries. I didn't laugh in his face or call him an idiot, but he caused his own wreck from pure stupidity. Zero time to react. Poor judgment and bad choices cause most of these accidents.



Rules of thumb like "take it dead center and don't try to avoid it" are idiotic. I would have wrecked many many vehicles over the years if I'd followed the "don't take evasive action" rule. Calculated evasive action is far different from a panic swerve. By all means if you are not capable of maintaining calm control follow those rules... they apply to many if not most people.

Unfortunately I do believe I have Unfortunately hit and killed many more . As to my advice well you really don't do much driving of a truck and gooseneck trailers. There is a reason trucks have grill guards.

BTW my handle on here is Newhaul aka Newby hauling . I am now retired but in my driving days I ran a 2 ton rv toter pulling mini floats. ( gooseneck flatbed ) .

Commonly called a deer guard.