Tallships. Which one?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Jackofall

Thanks for the replies. PSK125 really hit the answer I was going for. Yes this business model can be and is profitable. Can I make higher returns elsewhere? Absolutely. But I'm not after the highest R.O.I. I'm looking for the lifestyle, camaraderie, and doing something good for the planet as well. The niche market that seems to most profitable would be the gourmet coffee bean market where customers are used to paying a higher price. Sail shipped beans are still within this acceptable price range that customers are willing to spend. Other possibilities are high end spices and other non perishables. You also have paying customers who want to join the voyage and volunteer as crew. Average price to join such a voyage is between $1,200-$5,000 a week. I would want a paid professional base crew on top of the volunteers for obvious reasons. Blue Schooner Company just unloaded 10 tons of Columbian beans in Amsterdam (I believe). 10 tons is a drop in the bucket for the coffee market.
So now I need to research all the best coffee ports, routes, etc.
Ship aged rum is also a seller.

I just want a three mast tall ship so I can sing old pirate songs and swab the decks with a close knit brother/sisterhood of a crew. Much like when I was younger and in the military. I miss that camaraderie. Cant find that anywhere in the corporate world.
I'm doing this for the lifestyle, not the rat race.

Either you are going for profit or you aren't...once you add lifestyle, camaraderie and doing something for the planet, that means you aren't focused on profit and in a difficult niche, that means you likely won't make any profit.

Light weight high dollar perishable items like spices, get sent to the nearest airport and sent by plane. You would basically have to market based on how "cool" it is that they came by tall ship. That's possible. I have a couple friends into bourbon and they are all into a silly brand that buys a container fills it full of barrels and sends the container around the world.

So what is your cruising, sailing experience? Do you have your captain's license? What is your experience with commercial international shipping?

I'm guessing from your question, you aren't qualified to be captain, so that means paying good money for captain and core crew...probably 4-5 full time staff. Then insurance for someone running a business with no experience, using an old boat on a shoestring...I would expect insurance to be crazy high.

Passengers are problematic. Once you get more than a handful (not sure the exact number), you are considered a passenger ship with a whole new set of rules.

Make sure to talk to a corporate lawyer to make sure you have this venture solidly isolated from your personal holdings because if this goes belly up it could get ugly.

Someone beat me to the old joke about starting with $2mil to make $1mil...except here, I could easily see it being start with $10mil to end up broke.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Business model? Surely you jest...

Jim

He can make a small fortune with this plan.......as long as he starts with a large fortune!

[Tonali99]

I've got two thoughts on this.
First: the profit margine. Is it enough?
Second: Like crabbers, give the crew a piece of the action. Percentage depending on experience.
Volunteers on large sailing vessels are usually treated as guests who 'often' help out. Who would pay to be worked as hard as a pressed sailor from the 19th century? Probably doesn't even have cannons.

[barnakiel]

I have some ideas and I have some project management background. If you think you need any of this PLS send PM.


I believe a successful (not necessarily equals profitable) project will need to be very well worked out. Big ships bring big dockage and running maintenance fees.



It is possible that a conversion is never profitable while a new built would have an investment horizon (and risk) at levels not acceptable to any reasonable investor (there are also unreasonable ones). People look at this considering next best option, so if your project does not sound good, it will never take off the ground.


But it is OK to dream. Dreamers move this world.



barnakiel

[Jackofall]

Originally Posted by Tonali99

Probably doesn't even have cannons.

Oh but it will. Maybe. Just for shitsandgiggles.
Everyone here is on point. Yes I will need a large fortune to make a small one, but you still make a fortune, no? Lol

I have a cororate lawyer friend who is looking into this for me. Legal is of the upmost importance as well as insurance.

Regarding profitability. Have you seen some of the prices for high end coffee? Ive seen some that sell for $65 for 250g. (Shock) I've read an article somewhere (I'll try to find it later) where the local roasters in the U.K can sell sail shipped beans for £9-£15 for 250g which is the market price anyways for grade A beans. They failed to mention what price the roasters were paying per kilo but they mentioned that everyone came out ahead, including giving the farmers an even better deal than fairtrade, without pushing the price above what the market is already paying.

Yes we are selling the cool factor. And so far it seems to work. Again, once these covid restrictions are eased I'll book a voyage on Tres Homres or similar to not only gain experience but to also pick their brains about the trade itself. It seems these companies are really helping each other out with contacts, cargo, etc. You'll probably need another 1,000 ships before competition sets in.

[Jackofall]

Sorry, just had a thought regarding cannons. Could possibly open up the red sea route to get beans from Ethiopia. Third most expensive behind Blue Mountain Jamacia and Kona from Hawaii.

Sure, why not?? Big cannon go boom! Scare mean pirates away.
Here, someone hold my beer. It was nice knowing you. Lol

[Don C L]

Once you start thinking of guests, either paying or acting as crew, now you are thinking of 2 businesses at the same time. And if crew isn't paid enough you'll be spending a lot of time looking for crew, reliable and personable and experienced crew. and guests and freight. Perhaps I sound negative. But if you are serious you have to look closely and talk with people who are doing both freight and crewed charters. Having given this a pretty good going over 40 years ago when the "Star Pilot" was here looking for a new owner, I saw I'd need a reliable and committed team to make it work. Do you have some partners who are as interested in this as you?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I believe a successful (not necessarily equals profitable) project will need to be very well worked out. Big ships bring big dockage and running maintenance fees.

Success doesn't mean profit...if it's not a business.

If you intend it as a business, profit is a huge criteria for determining success otherwise, it's an expensive hobby.

[Jackofall]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Once you start thinking of guests, either paying or acting as crew, now you are thinking of 2 businesses at the same time. And if crew isn't paid enough you'll be spending a lot of time looking for crew, reliable and personable and experienced crew. and guests and freight. Perhaps I sound negative. But if you are serious you have to look closely and talk with people who are doing both freight and crewed charters. Having given this a pretty good going over 40 years ago when the "Star Pilot" was here looking for a new owner, I saw I'd need a reliable and committed team to make it work. Do you have some partners who are as interested in this as you?

I have two local roasters who are VERY interested (not enough but if you bring it, others will buy it) Uncle in-law that moves freight all over the world. His biggest money maker, believe it or not, is shipping containers of second hand automobiles and parts that were stripped off prior to going to the crusher. He ships from the E.U to Africa and the middle east. I have some people that will volunteer and if it really works and we set sail, then I have a good friend who can be captain. He's been waiting for something like this.
Investors: I live in Zurich Switzerland, raising capital is no problem as long as you have your ship together, so to speak. Self finance is the last option.

[mako]

Jack, perhaps you should clearly define what exactly you are trying to accomplish.

Is the goal just to take your young family on an adventure and sail around the world?

Are you trying to support the environment by shipping organic foods via wind power?

Roughly what sort of budget are you working with?

[Tom_F]

I wonder if focusing on passengers, such as for live-aboard dive trips or as small, exclusive, luxurious cruise ships on short routes, might prove profitable. The low carbon footprint may prove attractive to interested in "experiences" rather than traditional vacations. At the same time, running dive compressors and providing power for luxury items and significant galleys may mean this is now a low carbon footprint endeavor at all, but it sounds pretty cool to me. I will admit I don't know much about them and whether the physical layout, especially deck height, would be sufficient for paying passengers or make this impractical.

In any event, good luck. It sounds like something worth exploring.

[TomThumb]

I'll stay out of the business/ROI/profitability aspect. Risk, niche, longevity of market all spring to mind.

But as a square rig captain, I'll offer a few thoughts. This is clearly a niche sector with a limited pool of square rig endorsed masters and mates and deckhands.

Any volunteer/ amateur crew come with a liability in terms of competence and safety that will fall on the pro crew. Rather than assigning a task, you have to supervise willing novices. Doing that aloft, in oul weather when they don't want to play anymore is a truth.

Similarly, looking after this kind of ship, new or old, comes with a level of specialist knowledge and experience. Many riggers aren't gurus on square rig. Your bosun needs to direct them. Your engineer needs to love old and obscure equipment, fabricating parts rather than ordering them and also working aloft.

In terms of the rig, you will probably be dictated to by what is available but the essential factor between the number of masts and sails is an engineering one. Barquentines, (3 masts, foremast square rigged) do look better than brigantines (2 masts, fore square rigged) IMHO. Topsail schooners, (two or more masts but with a one or two squares on the foremast) are common. Staysail schooners with no squares are common and have the advantage of not needing crew to go aloft. Modern design allows some enormously tall single mast yachts. Once the mast height was determined by trees. The reason for more masts is twofold, to reduce overall masthead height (think about bridges) and the structural aspects in building and rigging them and to lower the height of the rig above the water reducing heel. The number of sails is about how manageable an individual sail is. Smaller sails are easier to furl and hoist. Many sails do not necessarily mean more crew, just working quickly from sail to sail. That is more a factor of their competence than numbers.

[Woodland Hills]

Will you be a US flagged vessel? If so you will need a unionized crew and you will need to meet all US rules and regulations. If you are not, will your clients still want to do business with a company that “exploits” foreign workers and not US workers. Your target of hip coffee bars is very into that sort of thing and being foreign flagged to avoid safety and staffing rules may not go over very well.....

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

Will you be a US flagged vessel? If so you will need a unionized crew and you will need to meet all US rules and regulations. If you are not, will your clients still want to do business with a company that “exploits” foreign workers and not US workers. Your target of hip coffee bars is very into that sort of thing and being foreign flagged to avoid safety and staffing rules may not go over very well.....

Jones act becomes a big issue. Unless you can secure an exemption, the ship has to be US Built.

[boatman61]

I think the Tres Hombres model is a good one and your ideal size to be honest.. they had a young skipper and four fulltime crew.. when I met them in the Azores they had 7 paying crew as well from early twenties to their mid sixties.. the oldest had been on the tall ship that sank on the E coast in the hurricane till a month before that event.
They have no engine and rely on their tender and 25hp outboard for docking.. moving her from the check in dock in Horta was and excellent exercise in warping her across to the outer wall.
They were carrying rum and organic produce from various islands in the Caribe to Holland.
I enjoyed my time on board and onshore with them
The quarters were like stepping back in time by two centuries.. the market for adventures of this type is quite large so methinks crew will be the least of the problems.
I believe the paid crew sign on from voyage to voyage though the Skipper and mate were I think permanent.