Tallships. Which one?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So averaging less than 1 trip per year over the first 13 years...is not bad?

At least it gives the OP a fair data point if he ever gets around to doing a business plan...ie: don't count on multiple round trips per year like in the days of sail when people did it for profit and assume a lost year roughly 1 in 4 years starting up and doing refits.

There's folks who always see the negative and those who look for the positive..
Its a whole different game from the days of the Clippers running to OZ and then on round the Horn with wool etc back to Europe.
They combine a few models into their operation and it seems to work for them so far. They sail to the Caribe and return with the seasons, the rest of the year they operate in Europe.
As for the 'Beg Button' you keep on about.. there's a whole lotta Churches and Charities do that as well, the charities run shops all round the world selling stuff they get for free run by volunteers and have a 'Beg Button'.. then pay their CEO's up to half a million a year.. guess that's what you'd call a successful business model..

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Exactly my point...they are not an example of a sail-cargo ship making a profit moving cargo.

Based on the website, they are getting money from just about anything but cargo including having a begging button to send them money just for being cool and eco-friendly. If it works and they make money, more power to them but it's not a cargo business they are running.

This is my impression also.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

There's folks who always see the negative and those who look for the positive..
Its a whole different game from the days of the Clippers running to OZ and then on round the Horn with wool etc back to Europe.
They combine a few models into their operation and it seems to work for them so far. They sail to the Caribe and return with the seasons, the rest of the year they operate in Europe.
As for the 'Beg Button' you keep on about.. there's a whole lotta Churches and Charities do that as well, the charities run shops all round the world selling stuff they get for free run by volunteers and have a 'Beg Button'.. then pay their CEO's up to half a million a year.. guess that's what you'd call a successful business model..

When starting a business, it's far more useful to get the negative views. If you can counter those with sound planing, you will likely succeed. If everyone tells you your quack plan is great, you are likely to go out and lose your shirt.

Never said your example was losing money. No idea if they are making money or not but judging by the variety of items on their website, cargo transport doesn't appear to be a primary driver of their business. Certainly not if they are doing less than 1 run per year. The OP was asking about running a cargo transport company.

The fact that some charities abuse their donations by overpaying senior staff, doesn't mean private businesses with a "beg button" are doing anything other than begging.

I would support having significant pay limitations on charities. Seems like a lot of politicians (of all varieties) have gotten into the business of starting charities and then employing friends and family at exorbitant rates. Of course a lot depends on the scale of the charity and the level of work by the top officials. Huge difference between a tax shelter charity where the CEO attends one meeting in Vegas each year and makes half million per year vs a full time CEO running a large charity with thousands of employees and volunteers.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

When starting a business, it's far more useful to get the negative views. If you can counter those with sound planing, you will likely succeed. If everyone tells you your quack plan is great, you are likely to go out and lose your shirt.

Never said your example was losing money. No idea if they are making money or not but judging by the variety of items on their website, cargo transport doesn't appear to be a primary driver of their business. Certainly not if they are doing less than 1 run per year. The OP was asking about running a cargo transport company.

The fact that some charities abuse their donations by overpaying senior staff, doesn't mean private businesses with a "beg button" are doing anything other than begging.

I would support having significant pay limitations on charities. Seems like a lot of politicians (of all varieties) have gotten into the business of starting charities and then employing friends and family at exorbitant rates. Of course a lot depends on the scale of the charity and the level of work by the top officials. Huge difference between a tax shelter charity where the CEO attends one meeting in Vegas each year and makes half million per year vs a full time CEO running a large charity with thousands of employees and volunteers.

True.. but you and I are are looking at different things..
You are looking at big profits whereas I am looking at what the OP is in search off..
(quote) Yes this business model can be and is profitable. Can I make higher returns elsewhere? Absolutely. But I'm not after the highest R.O.I. I'm looking for the lifestyle, camaraderie, and doing something good for the planet as well.(quote)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

True.. but you and I are are looking at different things..
You are looking at big profits whereas I am looking at what the OP is in search off..
(quote) Yes this business model can be and is profitable. Can I make higher returns elsewhere? Absolutely. But I'm not after the highest R.O.I. I'm looking for the lifestyle, camaraderie, and doing something good for the planet as well.(quote)

I've seen zero evidence the OP can be remotely close to profitable hauling cargo with an old sailing ship (even if not the highest ROI.)

If he wants to dump money in at a loss every year, that's certainly possible...as long as his bank account can support it.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I've seen zero evidence the OP can be remotely close to profitable hauling cargo with an old sailing ship (even if not the highest ROI.)

If he wants to dump money in at a loss every year, that's certainly possible...as long as his bank account can support it.

Well.. not having access to the companies books I can supply no 'Evidence' as you call it.. however..
Since they bought Tres Hombre's in 2007 and spending 2 years on refitting and sea trialling her before the first voyage to the Caribe in 2009, the fact they have considered it to be viable enough to have since invested in the purchase a second vessel to trade in the N Sea and Baltic is enough for me to surmise something must be going right for the model to have survived till now..
Guess it all comes down to how one views things..
Glass half full.. or Glass half empty..

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well.. not having access to the companies books I can supply no 'Evidence' as you call it.. however..
Since they bought Tres Hombre's in 2007 and spending 2 years on refitting and sea trialling her before the first voyage to the Caribe in 2009, the fact they have considered it to be viable enough to have since invested in the purchase a second vessel to trade in the N Sea and Baltic is enough for me to surmise something must be going right for the model to have survived till now..
Guess it all comes down to how one views things..
Glass half full.. or Glass half empty..

Tres Hombres shows no signs of cargo hauling as their primary business so it's not relevant to the OP's goal of hauling cargo.

May as well point out a daycare business where the owner has a canoe that he uses on weekends and say since they can make a profit, you can make a profit running a sail cargo vessel.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Tres Hombres shows no signs of cargo hauling as their primary business so it's not relevant to the OP's goal of hauling cargo.

May as well point out a daycare business where the owner has a canoe that he uses on weekends and say since they can make a profit, you can make a profit running a sail cargo vessel.

I have never claimed it was their primary business, just a large part of their business model.
When I was tied up behind them in Horta for 7 days I wandered round the boat and into their hold which was full.. the whole 40 tons with rum and other goods.
But hey.. from past experience with you if I say white you will shout Black..

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I have never claimed it was their primary business, just a large part of their business model.
When I was tied up behind them in Horta for 7 days I wandered round the boat and into their hold which was full.. the whole 40 tons with rum and other goods.
But hey.. from past experience with you if I say white you will shout Black..

OK, yeah, I understand the repeated shouting white thing.

Mr. OP, go ahead and invest many millions, it's sure thing!!!!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

OK, yeah, I understand the repeated shouting white thing.

Mr. OP, go ahead and invest many millions, it's sure thing!!!!

OP.. what he really means is its a Grey Area and could go either way.. though he'd never admit it, he's not a gambler.

[barnakiel]

I believe that in this kind of undertaking, having many optional income sources is not spreading business risk, I think it is creating it. We should not mix up a multi-field start up with Tesla buying Starbucks.



Start simple.



It is not like a portfolio of different assets.


Because each business part (charter guests, coffee trade, coffee processing, coffee marketing and sales, etc.) requires very different skills. And very few people have very many skills at a good enough level.


So this kind of undertaking would call for employing very many different people for different tasks, and paying these people will become a huge portion of the fixed cost. All the parts being in start-up stage will all place a big demand on the funding element. This is a no go while we know some will not work. So a fail one will be pulling down the sound parts. No go.



So. My take is to start with only one or two - complimentary - fields. If the ships captain is a smart business person and a hell of entertainer, then possibly charter and trade could be done at once. I would then stop at this and once the hold is full, deliver the beans to a business partner and forget about it.


Add more parts to the puzzle only once the core business is strong enough to fund the outlying areas.


Start small. Deliver proof of concept. Grow WISELY.


b.

[Jackofall]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

When starting a business, it's far more useful to get the negative views. If you can counter those with sound planing, you will likely succeed. If everyone tells you your quack plan is great, you are likely to go out and lose your shirt.
.

This thread has been more than helpful in that regard. I mean that in a positive way. I know some of you want me to prove it can be profitable via my business plan spreadsheet. Sorry folks. Thats private. And to be honest, its not even half finished. Yes I have some basic numbers which all look good but there are too many unknowns at the moment. Legal fees. Insurance. Taxes, duties etc.
I am in the process of enquiry regarding each. This ship aint going to set sail next weekend thats for sure.
Other points that need to be made, again.
STEEL HULL
NOT A BEATER BOAT


Gotta go, will finish reply later. I agree with keep it simple, dont cast too many hooks.

[belizesailor]

Havent read every post...but I have crewed on tallships. Maintenance and insurance costs are horrendous. Most are run by foundations and revenue just helps offset costs...mostly. Im aquantained w some of the captains/crew/foundation managers on a few of those boats and crewed on the ELISSA which is Museum/Foundation owned.

Odds of making a profit are slim, but not impossible...

Take a look at Picton Castle, they have been doing it for a long time. Ive never seen their numbers, but they have survived. I saw her in Bermuda just last year.

There are profitable boats in the tourist trade also. A good late friend of mine owned and operated the "Spirit of Buffalo" and made it work. He developed a good partnership w the city which had a lot to do w his success.

I also know some captain/owners in the Maine schooner fleet who made a go of it. See the traditional vessles that work the tourist trade in Key West too. Hauling tourist is likely the most profitable cargo.

I also know former owners of traditional vessels who went bankrupt trying to make it work.


I bet all the above are sucking wind now....

[barnakiel]

It has been repeated many times: we learn more from mistakes.


So all negative comments coming from this source (someone trying and failing - then sharing their experience) is most valuable.


Especially in business - where there are more reefs than deep water. Watch our for wrecks and where there is one - it is likely some very shallow water, not viable for navigation.


b.

[Jackofall]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I have never claimed it was their primary business, just a large part of their business model.
When I was tied up behind them in Horta for 7 days I wandered round the boat and into their hold which was full.. the whole 40 tons with rum and other goods.
But hey.. from past experience with you if I say white you will shout Black..

See, here we go. Someone who has actually been aboard and seen her cargo holds full. Step one to making it work is being able to fill your cargo holds. That said, Tres Hombres has been on the hard the last few weeks getting extensive hull work done. The number of people involved is many and whats surprising is the number of skilled craftsmen donating their time on her. She is expected to remain on the hard until October. This is something I want to avoid. I believe a new ship specifically designed to haul cargo with minimal crew, easy to sail, minimal and easy to upkeep/repair systems, may be the best option for multiple reasons. Make that work, then possibly move up to the big barqs, or frigates. I´m a busy person atm so I cant devote as much time as I wish I could. I am not quiting my day job just yet.



I would like to hear your opinions on something like this.
https://www.gosailcargo.com/ec-100.html