Taking an Island Packet 29 far Offshore?

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I think you are confused.

(Misinformed by your links on the previous post, not confused)

The ballast on my boat is almost 2700 lbs. of lead. I don't need an engine for ballast nor have many others that removed their diesel engine before circumnavigation and used only an outboard or sailed engineless.

(Tom your 1.7 capsize formula you posted includes engine weight)

You do understand that folks sailed for 1000's of years engineless right?

(Then why did you put one back in?)

I can see you are new to sailboats.

(Nice try Napoleon)

My boat is in very good shape for a 1974 Bristol 27.

(If you brought back that vessel from the links on the last post, “good on ya mate” the pictures look great, but as we know pictures can hide a lot.)

It also has new sails and a new engine. Chart Plotter I built. M1 Mantus 25 lb. anchor, etc., etc.

(Why all the gadgets? My father and all my ancestors West Cork fishermen have sailed, some around the world for 1000s of years).

Plus, I've been sailing it since 2011 in winds as high as 35 knots. No ballast problems.

That’s great! last week I was on my 3rd reef at 30+ knots, on a broad reach with NJ as my lee shore, hitting over 11 knots steady with 26k of displacement surfing down following seas.

(sunfish, S2 7.3, O’DAY 23, Hobie 18 magnum, capri 25 (Catalina), first 285 (Beneteau) all vessels under 30 feet that I have owned and sailed for 55 years)

It's so nice having 2700 lbs. of ballast though after having zero ballast except for my own body racing beach cats for so many years.

Photos from 2019 and 2024 in the boatyard.

Interior photos are before I removed the sink etc for a starboard side settee etc. for more room.

(Why would you remove a sink? How do you sanitize your environment? Why do you need more room? Wow? there’s a lot I don’t know about little boats your right.)

It’s a function of space that they are limited to providing for shorter duration passages not a jab at the “seaworthiness”.


Cheers, “Tommy two and a quake” this was fun
Good speed and safe passage.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

(Why would you remove a sink?

How do you sanitize your environment?

Why do you need more room?

It's probably a good time for you to stop with this debate(?) as I can see you are still learning about sailing and sailboats

While sailing longer distances late into the night, when I go below for a rest I like to relax on the leeward settee and read a bit or nap for 5-10 minutes.

I need a settee on both sides of the boat to do that in comfort.

By sanitize my environment, I guess you mean to wash the dishes. I do that in the cockpit.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by thomm225

No, none of the small boats were modified.

You just don't seem to understand what seaworthy smaller boats can do.

Maybe check out a few Offshore Boat recommendation lists.

https://mahina.com/wp-content/upload...er-v4.23-1.pdf

For example, a boat like yours wouldn't be allowed to race in the Fastnet a few years after 1979 because it's Capsize Screen Formula was too high above 2 whereas a more seaworthy small boat like mine has a Capsize Screen Formula of 1.71.

Vega 27: 1.88

Contessa 26: 1.71

Pearson Triton 28: 1.73

These numbers you are quoting don't mean spit offshore, where the only number that counts is size. I saw an old friend this weekend, and her last offshore passage was on a Vega 27 which was rolled 300 miles west of San Francisco.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

These numbers you are quoting don't mean spit offshore, where the only number that counts is size. I saw an old friend this weekend, and her last offshore passage was on a Vega 27 which was rolled 300 miles west of San Francisco.

Yet a 70ftr disappeared between St Martin and the Azores a few years back along with two smaller boats, the wreckage of one of the smaller boats was found several days after the storm.. of the other two, not a trace.

My H22 took me through 70kt winds and 11metre sea's on a December crossing of the Biscay from Brixham to Viviero with 3 90ft fishing boats going down in my vicinity off the Galician coast.. one was from Viviero.. this was in 2008.

Is it size.. Skill.. or just down to pure luck on the day..

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

These numbers you are quoting don't mean spit offshore, where the only number that counts is size. I saw an old friend this weekend, and her last offshore passage was on a Vega 27 which was rolled 300 miles west of San Francisco.

The numbers actually do mean a lot.

You can easily see that your boat is pretty much a racing boat with such a high Capsize Screen Formula of 2.22 and not as seaworthy as a boat like my Bristol 27 with it's 1.71 number.

This is why the Capsize Screen Number was used as a quick indicator of seaworthiness by those that ran the Fastnet Race after the Fastnet 79 disaster.

No one number tells the whole story of a boat's seaworthiness, but this is how they did it for a few years.

As far as being offshore, ships have been rolled out there so that doesn't mean a lot that a little Vega 27 was rolled while sailing offshore.

Regardless of your boats size, you still have to watch the weather and sail it properly when the seas get up and the weather turns nasty.

You get caught in the wrong conditions, any boat can be rolled.

The Contessa 32 that was made famous during the Fastnet 79 Face for sailing through the storm was rolled a few years later, and that is a very seaworthy boat.

Btw, the AVS of a Contessa 32 is about 156. Meaning it can roll almost all the way over and still recover.

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by thomm225

It's probably a good time for you to stop with this debate(?) as I can see you are still learning about sailing

I am always learning, thank you for the knowledge lil buddy.

While sailing longer distances late into the night, when I go below for a rest I like to relax on the leeward settee and read a bit or nap for 5-10 minutes.

Right, so your little boat needs modifications for passage,
You proved my point

I need a settee on both sides of the boat to do that in comfort.

So you forfeit basic sanitation for comfort?
Do you tell your guests that?

, I guess you mean to wash the dishes. I do that in the cockpit.

by asking how do you sanitize your environment, I am asking:

How are you washing your hands after you defecate and urinate ?
Is your cockpit your bathroom? Do you do that inside then go outside to wash your hands? Rename your vessel “green room”.

When you’ve nothing to lose, you’ve got nothing to lose.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

These numbers you are quoting don't mean spit offshore, where the only number that counts is size. I saw an old friend this weekend, and her last offshore passage was on a Vega 27 which was rolled 300 miles west of San Francisco.

Yeah... my boat's got everyone beat for capsize recovery by the numbers, and I sure she'll roll pretty easily too! Seems to me the capsize screening formula tells you both good and bad news at the same time. Still... if I'm gonna roll I'd like to be in the model that comes up the fastest. If you're gonna have a little skinny boat, better to make it one you can seal up from inside... and no sharp edges to fall against!

[Don C L]

Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if a boat like mine (8' beam, draws 4', 22.5' LWL, 3100# ballast) would be necessarily easier to roll? I haven't had her in those conditions yet. I wonder if anyone here has computer modeling skills so we could line up a whole bunch of boats with the same, steep, breaking wave and see what happens? The amount of freeboard and the height of the house, giving the breaking wave more hull to act on to roll the boat, seems crucial to me. A skinny, deeply ballasted, flush deck, low freeboard boat would be very hard to roll I bet.

[donradcliffe]

I did go back and look at the logs of my passages to the Caribbean from the East Coast USA. In each passage there was at least one period where I noted "winds 35 gusting 40+". These were not short squalls. These were sustained ocean force 8 winds, with seas to match.

Take a look at the government Beaufort Chart.

www.weather.gov/media/pqr/beaufort/beaufort.pdf

The predicted Force 8 wave height from the table is 18 ft with a max of 25 ft. The description is "Moderately high waves of greater length. Edges of crests begin to break into the spindrift".

This does not mean that you are definitely going to be hit with a 25 ft wall of white water in Force 8. It does mean that you may experience walls of white water. It does NOT predict what happens when you go through a front and have two wave trains intersecting at angles. In this case your probability of occasional walls of white water increases.

Now we turn to capsize ratios

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...s-78528-2.html

This contains a lot of arguments about capsize ratios and boat sizes, and is worth a read. Capsize ratios predict whether you are likely to come back right size up WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN ROLLED BY A BREAKING WAVE. Boat size is the biggest factor in predicting whether a breaking wave will roll you over. Getting rolled is not a good thing, and you are likely to sustain injuries, lose crew overboard, break your mast, and other nasty things.

Seamanship has a lot to do with whether you escape damage or even survive in heavy weather. Taking a breaking wave on the beam is the worst thing you can do. However, in the middle of the night it takes a lot of experience and energy to actively steer the boat, let alone recognize the dangerous waves.

There is a limit to what seamanship can accomplish on smaller boats. That is why the Coast Guard issues "Small Craft Warnings". I have no problems taking the SC27 out during Small Craft Warnings, I Know I may get wet, and a few things may break, but the USCG warning system is designed to cut down the number of rescues. However, 40 years ago I took the SC27 out in a Gale Warning to deliver it to a race. It was a long, tough night, and I will never do it again.

Some small boats survive around the world trips, or around Cape Horn, but its all a matter of probability. The longer you are out in the open ocean, the higher the probability you are going to get in trouble. If F8 doesn't scare you, lets talk about F9.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

by asking how do you sanitize your environment, I am asking:

How are you washing your hands after you defecate and urinate ?
Is your cockpit your bathroom? Do you do that inside then go outside to wash your hands? Rename your vessel “green room”.

When you’ve nothing to lose, you’ve got nothing to lose.

How are you washing your hands after you defecate and urinate ?

I wash my hands in the cockpit. The soap is in the lazarette locker. I also take my baths in the cockpit, but it usually takes a couple gallons of fresh water.

If I start cruising longer distances, I may have to first wash with salt water then rinse with fresh if I get low on fresh water.

Is your cockpit your bathroom?

I have a Thetford Porta Potty with 6 gallon holding tank, but if I'm in the ocean, I'll use a bucket. Urination usually goes into orange juice bottles then overboard.

I have a 5 gallon bucket also that may be used if I cruise long distance and am not in the ocean. I'll use it with kitty litter until I'm offshore. That is a plan as of now untested so far.

Do you do that inside then go outside to wash your hands?

Outside to wash yes after some cream.

All seacocks are closed. I have to do most all things to do with washing, bathing, etc. outside. This way the boat doesn't get various residues that can cause bad smells below.

I try and only have water in the bilge. No soap suds etc.

One thing about the sink. On these old boats, the seacock for the sink is at water level so sometimes the sink didn't drain all the way.

When you’ve nothing to lose, you’ve got nothing to lose.

No understanding this part of you post.

I have owned around 12 boats with 6 being sailboats. I have owned this Bristol 27 since 2011 which is longer that I have owned any other boat so I have sort of gotten attached it.

Plus, I have put quite a bit into it over those years so including purchase price I may have $15,000 in it now.

Most of those boats were old, but two of the beach cats I raced I bought new. A Nacra 6.0 and Nacra F-17.

Btw, I'm driving a 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee today with 214,000 on it. Just sold a 2005 Jeep GC with 268,000 on it.

I hate to let things go that are still working. I give my newer Jeeps to my son and ex-wife since they don't like maintaining vehicles.

[thomm225]

One thing about capsizing, I've had lots of practice with that.

The good news is when your boat rolls or gets pushed over say to 60 degrees or more, most of the sail's effect on the roll is gone. I've actually sat on the upper hull for a minute or so with the mast and sails at water level.

So, if you are at the helm, you may be able to recover by blowing the mainsheet and turning back into the wind IF the rudder is still in the water.

I have recovered many times from say 65 degrees over this way, but I have also ended up in the water just as often.

I've pitchpoled while offshore 12 miles, but after I freed myself from the sails and lines around me, I swam to the surface and righted the boat.

Then cleaned up, straightened up the mess.

Photo is of the 17' beach cat I pitchpoled 12 or so miles offshore.

[thomm225]

Cole Brauer rolled her Class 40 over to almost 90 degrees and recovered midocean during that solo RTW Race.

Luckily it was an autopilot connection failure, and the winds and waves weren't too high.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnJzon7O5UU

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Cole Brauer rolled her Class 40 over to almost 90 degrees and recovered midocean during that solo RTW Race.

Luckily it was an autopilot connection failure, and the winds and waves weren't too high.

That's racing, not cruising, and the objective of racing is to push the boat as far as you can. As you said Cole was not in big waves for her size of boat.

Certain popular designs, like the J24 have been proven to fill and sink when pushed too far, and should not be raced in the ocean without modification. The first time we rounded up under spinnaker on the SC27 I focused on the distance from the water to the hatch opening when the boat was at 90 degrees. It was about 18 inches, so I stopped worrying about putting the hatch board in unless we were in a gale.

Like you, I capsized/pitchpoled/went over backwards 100 times in a Hobie, but the big difference was I could rescue myself 99 of those times. The only time I couldn't was when the mast filled with water, and I spent the next day resealing it. What I learned from those experiences is that everything is fast and fun on a cat until it isn't.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

That's racing, not cruising, and the objective of racing is to push the boat as far as you can.

Yeah, I know.

I was a racer for about 15 years and put huge strains on my boats.

The guy that bought my last Nacra said the damn thing nearly fell apart after a few races.

I said I was sorry, but he knew I had raced it hard 10 months out of the year for about 5 years.

I've had maybe 400 buoy races and 50-60 distance races which include the 6 one hundred mile Round the Island Races.

This on 4 Beach Cats.

[dan104]

I did the return from USVI to Chesapeake in my boat which is a gozzard 6, built to the same level as the IP. It was 14 days from ST Thomas to Buefort NC, then 5 days up the ICW due to weather.


I can only recommend that you take the ICW down to below NC then hop in and out till you are comfortable with that then take the Thorny path. Lots of places to see and provision. It is a far more diverse trip than few weeks of looking for more or less wind.


BTW: I had good motor, solar and wind gen, SSB, Iridium, water maker and 70G of fresh in tank. 10G of water on the rail, and an extra 40G of fuel on the rail.