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Old 21-12-2016, 06:56   #16
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
I don't know how you can say the two opinions are not that far apart. Draw whatever conclusions you like. I just stated known facts about the respondents.
Uncivilized list is basic stuff with no mention of water makers, SSB et al. Service the engine, inspect/replace the rigging if its getting on a bit, buy a dinghy and some new generation anchors etc isn't going to break the bank. Increase the tankerage with plastic 20L drums, add a couple of extra sails and some solar. I might question the re-build of the rudder but a good inspection of the steering system sensible. Add a wind vance if the budget allows. What part of this list do you think Markj didn't do before setting off? as I said hardly worlds apart.
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Old 21-12-2016, 07:16   #17
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
What part of this list do you think Markj didn't do before setting off?
I've met MarkJ. He bought what I believe was an ex-charter in the Caribbean. I don't know what all he did to his boat and am not about to make public my presumptions but I am certain his earlier posting listed two items, not twenty.

Maybe you don't see the difference between the two outlooks but boatie does. One thing I will say about MarkJ of which I am certain is that you will hardly find a stronger proponent of making the right passage in the right season. If you do that I believe you will not have to worry about all that extra stuff.

I believe boatie echos this sentiment and he likewise has a bazillion miles under his belt. I don't know how many passage miles UNCIVILIZED but I suspect it is much less. As someone who has made an Atlantic crossing in the wrong season I can vouche for their opinions.
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Old 21-12-2016, 07:17   #18
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Chuck in an EPIRB and and AIS and you're good to go.



That's how I did it
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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Rebuild the rig, replacing all tangs & major structural bolts, & fittings. Stays included.
Add 2nd headstay - Solent or Staysail.
Give a (good) mechanic a budget, & have him give your engine some love.
Add a serious bow roller, a Maxwell vertical windlass, & a barrel of G43 chain.
Get 2+ serious anchors of different types. Rocna, & Fortress.
Add wind vane self steering
Add solar charging
Good Main, Jib, Solent
Storm Canvas
Light Air canvas
Rebuild rudder
Add nav gear
Add safety gear
Dinghy(s), with or without outboard
Lee Cloths for bunks
Extra tankage for fuel & water
Yea....those are pretty far apart....
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Old 21-12-2016, 07:38   #19
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

Sooo 60-100 grand would be healthy budget to grab something like an endeavor. And you could put 30,000 in upgrades/fixing.

Like newer production boats are nice, and I would love one for coastal cruising, but for real passage making. Might want something a bit more stout. Pearson, endeavor, Morgan.
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Old 21-12-2016, 07:42   #20
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
Sailing La Vagabonde on Youtube just sailed away as is.
Yes I believe you are correct but I think this is the couple that were doing different jury rigging of a rudder system that was poorly constructed. Fortunately they had it rebuilt to better withstand the rigors of open ocean sailing before they got to far.
That said, I'm sort of in MarkJ's corner as most boats these days are over equipped and not even crossing oceans, so go figure. Our first cruising boat was extremely lightly equipped but that wasn't unusual in the day, these days most sailors have too much money and spend it based on their fear levels.
Crossing oceans is not a big deal and most boats can make these trips in the trade wind belts, it's generally easy sailing, it's a different game in the higher latitudes.
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Old 21-12-2016, 07:54   #21
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by Hoosiersailor View Post
Yea....those are pretty far apart....
Okay, so which camp are you in?

I am in the Uncivilized camp, but then half that stuff is already on board for coastal cruising anyway. The boat came from the manufacturers with lee cloths, jack stays and a storm jib. Life jackets, harnesses, dinghy, chart plotter and a cruising chute we added. So other than a good overall inspection an some extra water drums its all there.

Moorzy asked about ex-charter boats. The problem is those boats could have been stripped and if you look at the photos on line many have. Also they may have been built to a "charter spec" so no lee cloths or storm jib, 60ft of chain etc.

The one thing that thankfully both lists have is an absence of SSB/water maker/Sat Phone/parasailor that seem to be de rigueur for the ARC.

Pete
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Old 21-12-2016, 07:57   #22
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

OK, let me detail this (maybe I should save it on the computer)

1) Sunsail/Moorings/Charter sailboats and designed, built and equipped to all 6 days autonomous, 1 day turn around and another 6 days autonomous for a whole charter season at $5,000 to $8,000 per week. Their business model Must have a boat that requires the minimum time off the road uncharterable.

So an ex-charter boat is only expected, on the longest cruise leg in the world (Galapagos to Marquesas 3,200 nms) to go 3 charter weeks in a row without the weekly cleaning.

That's not too tough an ask for a purpose built boat.

2) I met a solo sailor in New York this year exactly my age, we both retired in 2008, we both bought boats. His was 'upgraded' in the fashion some suggest. Mine went to sea. He was on his first passage from Maine to New York (not far). In the 8 years he has sweated in a boat fixing it while I have sailed round the world, drunk beer in every bar and kissed every available kissee.

3) My boat cost $100,000. if I had an extra $50,000 I would have bought a $150,000 boat.

4) People understand over capitalization when it comes to houses but not to boats. Buy a $1m house and spend a $1m putting in another floor and pool and the house is now worth $1.2M. Fine if you are going to live in it for 20 years but no good for 5 year resale value.

5) What I actually spent/bought (some I may have forgotten)
2008 Boat
2008 EPIRB
Crossed Pacific. No new house battery, no new sails riggin, nothing than the EPIRB

After 8,000nms
2009 Sydney Rudder bearing replacement. This was on the survey when I bout it so I just did 7,000nms before I could affrd it. it was just a bit of grinding noise no damage. Simple job about $400
2009 3 x free 2nd hand house batteries

after 11,000nms
2009 Darwin 2 x solar panels $2,000 - yep they were expensive back then!

After 15,000nms
2009 Malaysia new interior cushion covers, mattress covers $500
2009 Malaysia new kitchen Formica $400

2009 Thailand new Mainsail Rolly Tasker, Thailand not used till April 2010 $1,700

After 25,000 nms
2010 France new stove/oven $1,000

After 30,000 nms
2011 Caribbean New Forestay, babystay $1,500
2011 new Dinghy!!!!!!!!!!! $3,200
2011 AIS!!! $900

After 35,000Nms
2013 free 2nd hand Genoa
2014 New House batteries! $1000
2014 new Anchor chain $1,000
2015 new 18hp outboard $2,300
2015 13 new through hulls $3,000

After 40,000nms
2016 new life raft. Old 10 man Sunsail life raft well overdue, replaced with 4 man valise $2,000
2016 new exterior dodger, covers stackpack $5,000
2016 new rigging! $6,000
2016 New Geona in New York $2,300
2017 New Mainsail on order $2,300


So in 8 years I have spent about $35,000 on capital items for the boat and still have not done, nor would I have done the following in the 'essential' list'

Quote:
Add 2nd headstay - Solent or Staysail.
Give a (good) mechanic a budget, & have him give your engine some love.
Add a serious bow roller, a Maxwell vertical windlass, & a barrel of G43 chain.
Get 2+ serious anchors of different types. Rocna, & Fortress.
Add wind vane self steering
Solent
Storm Canvas
Light Air canvas
Lee Cloths for bunks
Extra tankage for fuel & water
Watermaker
Radar
Plotter at helm. I use a laptop
My Millage are just guesses, I doubt I have gone over 40,000nms, but its somewhere near.

So my Dollars spent per Mile is about 1:1 on capital expenditure.

The most important things is its all spaced out, only things bought when really necessary.
Remember the guy in Point 2? The first thing he bought was a new plotter. but after 8 years its obsolete and needs replacing. And it had not gone anywhere!

If you spend $50,000 on your new-to-you boat now by the time you have gotten as far as I you will still have needed to spend most of my $35,000. That totals $85,000.

By the way, I had 2 hours of fog in 2010. Thats all. So I don't think a Radar is needed for a circumnavigation.

Final point: If I had started with $1m I would have had everything, all bells and whistles incl ice-maker. But I was doing it on a tight budget.

Mark
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Old 21-12-2016, 08:04   #23
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Okay, so which camp are you in?

I am in the Uncivilized camp, but then half that stuff is already on board for coastal cruising anyway. The boat came from the manufacturers with lee cloths, jack stays and a storm jib. Life jackets, harnesses, dinghy, chart plotter and a cruising chute we added. So other than a good overall inspection an some extra water drums its all there.

Moorzy asked about ex-charter boats. The problem is those boats could have been stripped and if you look at the photos on line many have. Also they may have been built to a "charter spec" so no lee cloths or storm jib, 60ft of chain etc.

Pete
Actually Pete, it would be pretty inappropriate for me to even comment on being in a particular camp since I have no experience crossing oceans and prepping boats for a crossing. But it seems one group is assuming that a good survey is being performed and you are buying a seaworthy boat. Add a few things and go.

The other camp is assuming any boat you buy requires that you rebuild the entire rig, rudder, etc, add a windvane, solar, a barrel of G43 chain, 2nd headstay, etc or the boat shouldn't make the trip regardless.

Just seems pretty different ideas to me.
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Old 21-12-2016, 08:07   #24
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Interesting to compare and contrast these two quotes. Who would you trust the most?

One of these people has sailed around the world and lives aboard full time. One of them does not own a boat and has never circumnavigated.
The one in the middle
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Old 21-12-2016, 08:08   #25
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Okay, so which camp are you in?
I interpret Uncivilized's list as a moderate worst-case. If a good rigger inspects and blesses your rig, dont go replacing it. Similarly, if your rudder is in good shape, no delamination, structual supports and bearings good, dont go rebuilding it.

His list is a great starting point when looking at boats as it points to things an owner should consider and evaluate. It also highlights how the cost of refit for long distance cruising can easily surpass the purchase price of a "bargain" boat.

Many people wait for everything to be perfect before they ever cast off their lines. The more miles under your keel, the better you can judge which boat systems need to be closer to perfect.

For example, I prefer to have solid faith in my auxiliary propulsion before a passage. Others have circumnavigated without an auxiliary engine at all.





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Old 21-12-2016, 08:09   #26
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
jury rigging of a rudder system that was poorly constructed. Fortunately they had it rebuilt to better withstand the rigors of open ocean sailing before they got to far.
Not quite. They got from Greece to the Caribbean and needed to do the bearings... while it was in the water. I helped them pull it out and put it back in again. It was hell trying to get it back in with 2 of us in the water trying to submerge it and then line it up with the hole. We thought we were stuffed untill Elaina, who had no boating experience, came up with a simple idea with a rope that guided the rudder shaft into the casing. Sometimes it doesn't take a sailor

They have done mightily well
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Old 21-12-2016, 08:15   #27
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
OK, let me detail this (maybe I should save it on the computer)

1) Sunsail/Moorings/Charter sailboats and designed, built and equipped to all 6 days autonomous, 1 day turn around and another 6 days autonomous for a whole charter season at $5,000 to $8,000 per week. Their business model Must have a boat that requires the minimum time off the road uncharterable.

So an ex-charter boat is only expected, on the longest cruise leg in the world (Galapagos to Marquesas 3,200 nms) to go 3 charter weeks in a row without the weekly cleaning.

That's not too tough an ask for a purpose built boat.

2) I met a solo sailor in New York this year exactly my age, we both retired in 2008, we both bought boats. His was 'upgraded' in the fashion some suggest. Mine went to sea. He was on his first passage from Maine to New York (not far). In the 8 years he has sweated in a boat fixing it while I have sailed round the world, drunk beer in every bar and kissed every available kissee.

3) My boat cost $100,000. if I had an extra $50,000 I would have bought a $150,000 boat.

4) People understand over capitalization when it comes to houses but not to boats. Buy a $1m house and spend a $1m putting in another floor and pool and the house is now worth $1.2M. Fine if you are going to live in it for 20 years but no good for 5 year resale value.

5) What I actually spent/bought (some I may have forgotten)
2008 Boat
2008 EPIRB
Crossed Pacific. No new house battery, no new sails riggin, nothing than the EPIRB

After 8,000nms
2009 Sydney Rudder bearing replacement. This was on the survey when I bout it so I just did 7,000nms before I could affrd it. it was just a bit of grinding noise no damage. Simple job about $400
2009 3 x free 2nd hand house batteries

after 11,000nms
2009 Darwin 2 x solar panels $2,000 - yep they were expensive back then!

After 15,000nms
2009 Malaysia new interior cushion covers, mattress covers $500
2009 Malaysia new kitchen Formica $400

2009 Thailand new Mainsail Rolly Tasker, Thailand not used till April 2010 $1,700

After 25,000 nms
2010 France new stove/oven $1,000

After 30,000 nms
2011 Caribbean New Forestay, babystay $1,500
2011 new Dinghy!!!!!!!!!!! $3,200
2011 AIS!!! $900

After 35,000Nms
2013 free 2nd hand Genoa
2014 New House batteries! $1000
2014 new Anchor chain $1,000
2015 new 18hp outboard $2,300
2015 13 new through hulls $3,000

After 40,000nms
2016 new life raft. Old 10 man Sunsail life raft well overdue, replaced with 4 man valise $2,000
2016 new exterior dodger, covers stackpack $5,000
2016 new rigging! $6,000
2016 New Geona in New York $2,300
2017 New Mainsail on order $2,300


So in 8 years I have spent about $35,000 on capital items for the boat and still have not done, nor would I have done the following in the 'essential' list'



My Millage are just guesses, I doubt I have gone over 40,000nms, but its somewhere near.

So my Dollars spent per Mile is about 1:1 on capital expenditure.

The most important things is its all spaced out, only things bought when really necessary.
Remember the guy in Point 2? The first thing he bought was a new plotter. but after 8 years its obsolete and needs replacing. And it had not gone anywhere!

If you spend $50,000 on your new-to-you boat now by the time you have gotten as far as I you will still have needed to spend most of my $35,000. That totals $85,000.

By the way, I had 2 hours of fog in 2010. Thats all. So I don't think a Radar is needed for a circumnavigation.

Final point: If I had started with $1m I would have had everything, all bells and whistles incl ice-maker. But I was doing it on a tight budget.

Mark
You've done a great job looking after the boat and the bucks, no question. Didn't I notice a fancy new arch, davit system the last time we saw you? R
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Old 21-12-2016, 08:27   #28
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
You've done a great job looking after the boat and the bucks, no question. Didn't I notice a fancy new arch, davit system the last time we saw you? R

Oh, yes.
2015 Davits, arch etc $5,000
They still don't work well.
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Old 21-12-2016, 08:39   #29
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pirate Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Oh, yes.
2015 Davits, arch etc $5,000
They still don't work well.
Shoulda gone to the S African guy at the Sandy Ground yard.. just over the bridge on the left, gate opposite Rue La Fish.. highly recommend him for any stainless work..
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Old 21-12-2016, 09:23   #30
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Interesting to compare and contrast these two quotes. Who would you trust the most?

One of these people has sailed around the world and lives aboard full time. One of them does not own a boat and has never circumnavigated.
Both can be right.

E.g.

The one without a boat gives you a list of all the upgrades expected prior to departure..

The one who has circumnavigated gives you the list of the upgrades to his boat as she is now.

Having a boat or not, having circumnavigated or not, good advice can come from anybody. Listen to everyone, then make your own well informed choices.

Huh?

b.
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