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Old 21-12-2016, 10:09   #31
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

Gents. The server was just kind enough to eat my comments explaining, & extrapolating my earlier post herein. Maybe I'll recompose it, maybe not. I'd rather spend 15min. doing something else right now.
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Old 21-12-2016, 11:06   #32
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

So, my on the water resume. Bleep me. It stretches from here, half way to Pluto & back. Enough so that when I began sailing full time, Dennis Connor's bowman had me on speed diall. As did/do a lot of other folks at lofty levels. Must go with getting head hunted out of the blue to skipper one of those boats (IACC type) at the venerable age of 24. And if you need more, including my CV appendices on seamanship, LMK, I’ll PM you the multi-page version.

Rebuild the rig, replacing all tangs & major structural bolts, & fittings. Stays included.
Add 2nd headstay - Solent or Staysail.
For me rebuilding a rig’s a job for a long weekend, on a 40'er. Well, unless parts have to be FedEx'ed in from Tibet. As I've done more of these than I can recall. So, worst case scenario's a week. And that includes all new conduit, & electrical wiring, etc.

Look at it this way. Why wouldn’t you want to guarantee the integrity of your rig prior to crossing an ocean? Or maybe I’ve just seen enough rigging bits barely staying together, despite cracks & corrosion so that I’m a fan of tuneups.
Would you give your car a good going over prior to a cross country trip with the wife & kids? And on the ocean you can’t stop & hire a mechanic if things go awry. Especially not one who makes house calls in a climbing harness.

Give a (good) mechanic a budget, & have him give your engine some love.
Again, see the cross country roadtrip question above. Plus, having a 2nd set of eyes look over one of the boat’s key systems surely don’t hurt. I’ve seen the ugly results of folks not doing this. And sailboat repowers cost about as much as a car, so

Add a serious bow roller, a Maxwell vertical windlass, & a barrel of G43 chain.
Get 2+ serious anchors of different types. Rocna, & Fortress.
Who goes cruising without good ground tackle? And what stripped out charter boat has such?

Add wind vane self steering
Do many long trips without self steering? Port & Starboard watches gets real old after a few days. To the point where folks are tired enough so as to be unsafe.

Add solar charging
It ain’t mandatory, but I prefer quiet vs. the sound & smell of a diesel.

Good Main, Jib, Solent
Duh.
Storm Canvas
Duh, squared.
Light Air canvas
It is a sail boat. See the comments about solar & charging.

Rebuild rudder
Open up a 20yr old foam cored rudder, & you’ll see the definition of Fugly. And blowing out a rudder is one of the top 3, or top 5 reasons that people press the “beam me up Scotty” button. Losing control starts the downhill slide towards freaking out. Such is an indisputable fact.

Add nav gear
Charts, sextant, star finder, parallel rules, compass (dividers), pilot charts, stop watch… and if you must, your own personal selection of “electronic pacifiers”.

Add safety gear
Life jackets, harnesses, Jacklines, flares, & sound signals. After that, most everything else in this category is optional. And I keep 3-4 of those 5 in my seabag in the closet that’s perpetually on standby for travel.

Dinghy(s), with or without outboard
Hard dink, with oars. A recurring (luddite type) post of mine. They’re cheap, sturdy, & work. Pool toys with outboard cost a lot more $$$$.

Lee Cloths for bunks
Duh!

Extra tankage for fuel & water
It’s either this, or jugs lashed on deck. Something I’ve never been a fan of, & have espoused as much as recently as yesterday in another thread. “How much is too much”.
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Old 21-12-2016, 12:38   #33
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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[COLOR=black]So, my on the water resume. Bleep me. It stretches from here, half way to Pluto & back.

Well, the depths near Pluto must be OK.


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Old 21-12-2016, 12:53   #34
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

You only need 5k davits if you have a 10k dinghy. We opted for a USD500 inflatable that I hoist single-handedly onboard. We saved 5k on davits. ;-)

Any equipment choices entail more equipment choices.

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Old 21-12-2016, 13:58   #35
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Not quite. They got from Greece to the Caribbean and needed to do the bearings... while it was in the water. I helped them pull it out and put it back in again. It was hell trying to get it back in with 2 of us in tyhe water trying to submerge it and then line it up with the hole. We thought we were stuffed untill Elaina, who had no boating experience, came up with a simple idea with a rope that guided the rudder shaft into the casing. Sometimes it doesn't take a sailor

They have done mightily well
Must have screwed up on that one, my mistake, different young couple in a Benni on Utube with the rudder to bearing structure coming apart.
Aren't they sailing a cat now? Hope your keeping well. R
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Old 21-12-2016, 15:27   #36
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

Having faith in your steering system including redundacy in the self steering department, for me that's adding the hydrovane that I already have. Faith in the rigging, im replacing mine myself as its 15 years old ($5,700aud) plus im dye testing turnbuckles. Adequate sails , they don't need to be new. Approximate size anchor ,chain and windlass. A reliable modern engine that you understand. Redundancy in the navigation area ,which is easy with todays electronics. Redundancy in power generation. Comprehensive inspection of throughhulls, sea cocks and ajoining hoses and clamps. Sun protection in cockpit.
Everything after that for me is a optional luxury.
My new boat will be ready to take of for extended cruising, with what I need (want) within 8 weeks, no need to spend years getting ready unless you buy a project boat, thus im a fan of more modern boats.

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Old 21-12-2016, 16:29   #37
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

Interesting discussion so far :-)

To the OP's question:
- what are the typical upgrades I would have to do to get them up to standard, and the costs involved of that (ball park)?

I haven't done any blue water yet but have 8 charters and I can tell you what is NOT on a production charter boat and might be a typical upgrade. You can all debate on what is needed / not needed but having a list of the possible upgrades and a ballpark of the costs will certainly help the OP, especially for comparing a boat that has the upgrades vs one that doesn't.

What I've seen charter boats NOT have:
1. Any kind of radar, period.
2. EPIRB, AIS
3. Decent ground tackle. I just did Moorings charter in the Bahamas and the boat had 80' of chain. I also like the earlier suggestion of upgrading the bow roller and windlass to handle a secondary anchor.
4. Power generation of any kind. So I would expect to add solar, wind generator, upgraded batteries for storage, and the related systems to go with it like an inverter. An alternator upgrade is probably a pretty common upgrade too.
5. Decent sails. You're just going to get a jib and a main with a charter boat, and these sails will have been flogged to death by the time the charter operator sells the boat. On my TMM charter in SVG I had a 2'x3' patch blow out of the jib. Also you won't get a selection of sails like a staysail, genoa, spinnaker, storm jib, storm trisail
6. For rigging, I'd want to upgrade to a cutter. My preference, and probably a typical upgrade. You wont find that on a charter boat.

Which of these would you not want on your boat from the start?

I'm looking to buy a private party boat that has most of these upgrades versus a charter boat that doesn't. Having the ballpark costs for each (which I posted in a spreadsheet) let's you make an apples to apples comparison.


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Old 21-12-2016, 16:49   #38
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pirate Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

In Jan 2006 I bought a 2001 Bene 331 from Moorings in the BVI's for $60,000 with a new set of Doyles sails thrown in.. the originals were in good nick .. I sailed to St Martin where I spent $3000 on a custom SS solar/dinghy arch.. fitted a large solar panel and an Aerogen wind generator, bought a slat floor dingy and a Tohatsu 5hp outboard.. total spend came to less than $7000 including the arch.. (two years later the boat changed hands and I still had not needed to use the new sails).
I then sailed in June 2006 for Portugal via the Azores with no problems whatsoever.. the amount of chain and anchor were sufficient for my standards.. ie 3.5xboat length plus an extra 75ft.
The deals are out there if you look for them.
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Old 21-12-2016, 16:58   #39
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

Given the number of steering / rudder failures, I would always insist on dropping the rudder, fullest available check up of the structure, the bearings and the adjacent hardware. A rudder failure offshore is always a major trouble and few skippers have the skills, the stamina and the patience to go on without a rudder. Most press the pink button.

I would also insist on full check up and possibly extensive replacement of the standing rigging (unless new or not older than 5 years and mint condition), including replacing adjacent hardware (mast plates, turnbuckles, toggles and chainplates) - if worn, rusty or otherwise guilty.

The keel should be pristine - no cracks, no rusty bolts and no rust (if steel) on the ballast.

The engine should start at first try and run reliably. Sails should be in fair condition. Running rigging and deck hardware should be sound.

Seacocks should be clean, operational and attached to the systems with sound, double clamped hoses of proper style and quality.

The boat should be 'perfectly' watertight - from below and also from above. Or do you prefer you dry change of clothes wet?

AND THEN only come any upgrades.

You can have as many upgrades as you please. Upgrades do not sail the boat, they just make sailing less demanding, easier and more fun.

So, upgrade, but start with a sound worthy base up first!

Yours,
b.
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Old 21-12-2016, 18:28   #40
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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[COLOR=black]So, my on the water resume. Bleep me. It stretches from here, half way to Pluto & back.
I think there are few who would dispute you are a smart guy with a wealth of knowledge. I certainly don’t.

That said, while I have heard you bragging about the America’s Cup back in the day and your name dropping before, I don’t know that I have ever heard you claim to have crossed an ocean let alone circumnavigate, certainly not on a boat you own.

Please correct me if I got that wrong. Since it's pertinent to the topic I would have expected you to have said so instead of mentioning your relationships with folks at lofty levels which seems like a distraction.

Meanwhile, to quote a guy who is out there right now doing it on his boat, one he has circumnavigated with, and the kind of boat the OP is talking about "So in 8 years I have spent about $35,000 on capital items for the boat and still have not done, nor would I have done the following in the 'essential' list’ "

My advice to the OP, get busy on the crew wanted ads and volunteer to pay your way with someone crossing an ocean if you have to. Would be money well spent in light of the amount of money you are about to invest. You will learn far more than anyone can teach you from their armchair.
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Old 21-12-2016, 23:49   #41
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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2) I met a solo sailor in New York this year exactly my age, we both retired in 2008, we both bought boats. His was 'upgraded' in the fashion some suggest. Mine went to sea. He was on his first passage from Maine to New York (not far). In the 8 years he has sweated in a boat fixing it while I have sailed round the world, drunk beer in every bar and kissed every available kissee.
Mark
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Old 22-12-2016, 02:58   #42
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Chuck in an EPIRB and and AIS and you're good to go.



That's how I did it
Thats pretty much what I did....

Three weeks later and 700 miles from town the mast fell down ( 8 year old boat).

I don't think you need to be upgrading stuff but you do need to be making sure that what you have is 'fit for intended voyage'.

Two things that - having mislaid the rig - would have cost me the ship...
a lack of raw water pump impellers and engine oil.... ( motored for 700 miles )

Its all about the simple things.......
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Old 22-12-2016, 03:05   #43
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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Thats pretty much what I did....

Three weeks later and 700 miles from town the mast fell down ( 8 year old boat).

I don't think you need to be upgrading stuff but you do need to be making sure that what you have is 'fit for intended voyage'.

Two things that - having mislaid the rig - would have cost me the ship...
a lack of raw water pump impellers and engine oil.... ( motored for 700 miles )

Its all about the simple things.......
Agree 100%

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Old 22-12-2016, 03:30   #44
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

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One of them does not own a boat and has never circumnavigated.
What has having circumnavigated got to do with anything? I have not circumnavigated but have crossed oceans many times and sailed the equivalent of four or more circumnavigations... I will probably never circumnavigate either; it doesn't interest me and I don't need the badge!

Of course the OP can buy a production boat. Most people sail "production" boats. All cruising boats eventually get tweaked based on experience.

The best advice I can give is don't try to buy a boat to circumnavigate. Buy a boat to go sailing and exploring; start with short trips and work up over a couple of season and then head off.

The ocean passage part; especially on the low-latitude circumnavigation train is the easy part. Dealing the the departure and arrival is the hard part.
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Old 22-12-2016, 05:48   #45
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Re: Ocean Crossing Upgrades

Title of the thread is Ocean Crossing Upgrades and the OP wants to buy a production boat to sail around the world and is seeking advice from experienced sailors WHO HAVE DONE THE SAME.

I thought it interesting to compare and contrast the difference between two respondents, one who has circumnavigated and one who certainly has lots of sailing experience but who we don't know has even crossed an ocean before.

Of the two, the guy out there doing it cautions against running out and buying all the stuff that everyone says you need pointing out that "If I had started with $1m I would have had everything, all bells and whistles incl ice-maker. But I was doing it on a tight budget." while the other who has nothing to lose by spending other people's money recommends arbitrarily replacing rigging and rudders and buying stuff to the tune of $30k-$50k.

My concern? Telling people they have to go out buy a bunch of stuff isn't really helpful and is directly contradicted by the real reality and experiences of real people who are really out there doing it, not sitting comfortably in an armchair. I don't think there is anything wrong with lot's of nice stuff assuming having to pay for it doesn't prevent you from leaving the dock.

The difference between the two? One reflects an ideal world, one reflects the real world.
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