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Old 21-11-2020, 13:21   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Boat: Hobie Wave
Posts: 3
Re: My turn... first new boat

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful comments. I will apologize in advance for the following wall of text. I wasn't sure if I should respond with a "wall of text" or a "wall of replies" so I went with the wall of text...

I had a chance to meet the current owner and look over Lion Heart, and if nothing else the wife sure fell in love with her. Given this was the first boat I've taken a serious look at it was also a good learning experience for me; 1) make a better checklist, 2) look at your [expletive deleted] checklist, and 3) check the photos you are taking... I have lots of blurry pictures of thumbs...

What I found:
  1. The boat never had teak decks.
  2. She has spent most of the last decade in fresh water (Lake Champlain) and was only recently moved her to her current location, which is still fresh water. In fact it was her second owner that moved her to Kingston NY so she has spent most of her life in fresh water.
  3. There is a single soft spot about a 6"-12" long on the starboard deck just aft of the front of the cabin top. I misunderstood the broker's description on the phone, the cabin top is fine and there are no other soft spots.
  4. There are "elevated" moisture readings from the start of the cabin top to about the shrouds/boarding gates on both port and starboard decks.
  5. The owner had two quotes for repairs that he sent to me; one for $13K and the other for $18K. While I don't want a project boat, maybe just one project (famous last words) is ok for the right boat. If nothing else it is a signal of how much the owner might be willing to move on the price; an $18K quote is likely going to be well north of $20K after all is said and done.
  6. Lion Heart has the best layout below I've seen on a T37 with an actual double cabin aft instead of a tiny quarter berth. The compromise for the double berth is there is no nav station, or at least the nav station is a chart table that folds down in the aft cabin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion Jim View Post
You can gain some real life hints and practical knowledge from someone who has just gone through the purchase and refit process here;
Yes I've watched a bunch of their videos and this actually gives me a great deal of hope. They don't say in the video what "cheap" is, but they are on the TOG mailing list (I finally got in) and it looks like their boat is currently for sale in Panama (asking US$45,000). If it wasn't for covid this boat would definitely be on my short list. I might reach out anyway

S/V Ramble On also has many videos of upgrades and refits as well as a complete accounting of everything they've spent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AiniA View Post
You should widen your search both geographically and within the boating range. You can't, for example, say 'Bristol' without acknowledging that there are two generations of Bristols that are very different. The decimal ones were aimed more upmarket than the earlier ones. Also designers varied which matters.
Yes, I am looking between Maine and the Gulf coast for boats, but the farther a boat is away the more it will cost to move it home. Finding a boat that checks most of my boxes in a local marine gives me more $$$ for other options, but I am willing to go far for the right boat. If it wasn't for covid I would be looking in the Caribbean and Med as well.

And I know exactly what you mean about generations of boats and different designers, it is making my spreadsheets very complicated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas View Post
Tayana 37 + wet deck= big headache. They used a not so waterproof plywood. A lot of Tayana 37's need the entire deck removed and rebuilt.
I am finding lots of conflicting information on this, in particular: "Tayana 37 decks are NOT (usually) built over large slabs of substrate but are set over approximately 4 to 6 " squares of encapsulated wood substrate, each set being an independent core and bounded by polyester. Most times if water penetrated, the amount on wetness will only be in the individual 4x4 or 6x6 core not a whole zone of deck."

The consensus on the owners group seems to be similar for boats that never had teak decks; due to the way the deck is constructed moisture movement in the deck is limited and the deck is over built (brick shithouse is a commonly used phrase) so structural integrity doesn't seem to be a problem. I tossed out the idea of getting a core sample or opening something up so we can probe with a dental pick and that might be possible as part of the survey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas View Post
There is a world of difference between a Tayana V42 and a 37, apples and oranges, night and day.
Yes, but they both check most of my boxes; heavy displacement with huge tanks. But what are some of the night and day differences? I expect them to be different boats (given keels, sail plans, etc.) but I would say a T37 and Hunter 37 are "night and day" and a T37 and a T42V are sort of in the same ball park. Going solely by sailboatdata numbers that is, so I am interested in your thoughts,

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonesail View Post
i personally would go for a recent boat .. less than 30 years old. also check for insurance and dockage before you buy a boat.
I would love to stay newer than 30 years... but then there is the budget issue; newer boats with the features I want (displacement/tanks) tend to push my budget and new boats in my budget don't have the features I want... I've already checked insurance (about what I expected) and it while I was looking for nearby slips that I found Lion Heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Mark View Post
As far as the boat goes she is pretty basic. Not sure of the age of the electronics so that may or may not be a concern. The autohelm 3000 is old and probably still works.
The current owner takes some pride in keeping her basic as basic is easy to fix and look after. I kind of like that vibe as well. The Autohelm still works (to be confirmed during a sea trial) and the age of the electronics isn't really a concern; the electronics either need to be brand spanking new with all the bells and whistles I want, or they need to be old enough to be of no real bargaining value so I can replace/upgrade the bits I want. Lion Heart falls into the latter category and I am ok with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Mark View Post
Rigging. It's new!
This. So much this. I could likely own the boat for 10-20 years and not have to worry (much) about sails, spars, or rigging. That is huge as far as I'm concerned and cheaper than tending to the decks. We've already talked about an equity hold back to ensure the rigging is tuned correctly as part of a sea trial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Mark View Post
This boat's ad also says it has a 3 bladed prop. Figure 4K for a folding 3 bladed prop.
Good catch, I missed that and didn't realize how expensive a new prop would be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Mark View Post
Also says "just reduced". It's wintertime. People selling in the winter are usually way motivated.
LH should be back on the hard for the winter by now and using the way back machine I've determined she has been on the market since at least March 2020 already. The owners say they are in no hurry to sell and I know what lowballs he considers offensive. On the other hand, I don't know if I want to buy a boat that will take me a year or more to sell when it is my turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbrazil View Post
Look at LOTS of boats that fit your criteria. This is a fun time! Enjoy it!
We must have different ideas of fun ;-) I go through the "I need a boat" phase every ten years, but now that I've decided its now or never the stress levels have definitely increased. I might just go to Bob Perry and pay him $500 (I can't believe he consults so cheaply) to tell me what boat to buy, or at least lead me by the nose to a "not stupid" decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nortonscove View Post
Only thing I have to add is that this style of boat is a bit of a pain to board on a mooring or at anchor.
This is actually a major concern for me; there is no point getting a boat that checks all the displacement and tankage boxes if we can't actually board the thing from our dinghy. I've searched for mid-ship boarding platforms and the fact this and this exist gives me hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA-None View Post
No one has mentioned it yet but for those who may not be aware a sea trial is not a test drive.
Yes, the sea trial will be a separate thread when/if the time comes. However, even the owner admits the boat hasn't really been sailed since the new rig was installed and I just want to be as sure as I can that I won't have to hire a rigger to go up the mast first thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
The sea trial far up a river is a tough one. How far are you / long would it take you to get to open ocean (and out of the river)?
NYC harbor is 80nm away, so not feasible at all. However, the owner/broker seem to be ok with a small equity hold back until we can take it out in a bit of blow on West Haverstraw (about 3nm wide there) where I will keep the boat and is actually the broker's marina so he is more than happy to help find me a slip, find a rigger etc etc.
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Old 21-11-2020, 14:24   #17
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ME, TCI, On da boat
Boat: Pearson 323, Tayana V42CC
Posts: 394
Images: 1
Re: My turn... first new boat

Quote:
Yes, but they both check most of my boxes; heavy displacement with huge tanks. But what are some of the night and day differences? I expect them to be different boats (given keels, sail plans, etc.) but I would say a T37 and Hunter 37 are "night and day" and a T37 and a T42V are sort of in the same ball park. Going solely by sailboatdata numbers that is, so I am interested in your thoughts,
There is a big difference in the construction and design of the chainplates and mast steps. The T37 having some issues with chainplates and knees for most and some had issues with the step. These are not common on the V42.

There is a big difference in the way a full keel. attached rudder boat will sail versus a split underbody with skeg hung rudder and cutaway forefoot boat. The 5' difference is notable in both size, storage and expense.

Yes they are both heavy boats, Yes they both do not back up well. Both are very seaworthy and both are good sailing boats. Both will do surprisingly well in light air if you put up enough canvas.

The deck repair estimate you got contemplates maybe 36 ft.sq. I have seen estimates for recoring decks averaging about $500/ft.sq. A 6" X 12" soft spot is not in line with the estimates. I looked at and passed up a few of T37s in my boat search due to deck rot. While the deck in theory is isolated 6" squares in reality there are not isolated. I looked at 4 T37's and 3 of them had soft foredecks and all needed bow sprits but all were priced accordingly. If you're not heading offshore or trying to sail off the edge of the world a small soft spot is not going to kill you but I would have a good hard look at the knees and chainplates and try and stop where the deck leak came from.

I'd go with whatever the Admiral likes and get used to the BreakOutAnotherThousand reality of boat ownership.
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Old Yesterday, 10:35   #18
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Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Boat: Hobie Wave
Posts: 3
Re: My turn... first new boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas View Post
There is a big difference in the construction and design of the chainplates and mast steps. ...

There is a big difference in the way a full keel. attached rudder boat will sail versus a split underbody with skeg hung rudder and cutaway forefoot boat. The 5' difference is notable in both size, storage and expense.
Thanks, that is about what I expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas View Post
The deck repair estimate you got contemplates maybe 36 ft.sq. I have seen estimates for recoring decks averaging about $500/ft.sq. A 6" X 12" soft spot is not in line with the estimates.
Yes, the 6"x12" estimate was just my wild guess based on what I could feel walking/bouncing on the deck. Unfortunately the quote for $13K is hand written and the size of the spot soft is hard to read, however the materials section includes 5x2'x4' closed cell foam core so figure approx 40sqft. The $18k quote states 72sqft of deck core to be replaced. The $13k quote recommends only replacing the deck core in the soft spot which likely accounts for the differences in area.

The soft spot and moisture was present when the current owner bought the boat and he claims to have stopped the leak. The fact that he has gone 15 years without the problem getting worse makes me hope he is correct. On the other hand leaving a problem like that for 15 years gives things lots of time to rot...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubaseas View Post
I'd go with whatever the Admiral likes and get used to the BreakOutAnotherThousand reality of boat ownership.
Pleasing the Admiral is priority #1, if she doesn't buy into the boat then it's a waste of money. But after explaining boat displacement as "floats like a log" and "floats like a cork" she is all over "floats like a log", even at the expense of cockpit and galley space.

I've been driving BMWs for 20-ish years so I am very familiar with huge depreciation (sailboats are a good investment by comparison) and large unexpected costs. Now I will simply be trading the hole in my driveway for a hole in the water.
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Old Yesterday, 11:08   #19
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ME, TCI, On da boat
Boat: Pearson 323, Tayana V42CC
Posts: 394
Images: 1
Re: My turn... first new boat

Quote:
The fact that he has gone 15 years without the problem getting worse makes me hope he is correct. On the other hand leaving a problem like that for 15 years gives things lots of time to rot...
There's the rub. You won't know until you either core sample or dive in for repairs. If you are going to coastal cruise and Caribbean I wouldn't worry too much about a soft spot other than resale value. If you work the boat hard and the foredeck gets loose or the soft spot gets bigger then you have to decide fix or sell. Lots of big plusses on Lion Heart. You could slow things down some by injection or vacuum infusion of either a urethane or "creeping" epoxy like GitRot. Not a permanent repair or the right way to do it but may prevent further damage.
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