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Old 05-11-2020, 19:50   #1
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My turn... first new boat

Ahoy,

I should start by giving a big thanks to all the members that have already unknowingly answered most of my questions. Through the miracle of search I have found answers to almost everything, but I would like some clarification and advice on a few remaining matters.

My relevant details:
  • I have being doing the bash and crash on Lasers and Hobie cats for ages. Now I want to sail on a boat where I won't spill my drink and dry righting isn't a thing.
  • I have some keelboat experience on OTBs 26'-54' and did a bare boat cruising course (CYA forgot the number) many many years ago.
  • I am 5-10 years from retirement which will (hopefully) include extended Caribbean cruising. Until then we hope to cruise Long Island Sound with summer sunset cruises and weekenders on Cape Cod.
  • I will get the biggest boat I can afford now and forego any intermediate boat. I will spend the intervening time preparing the boat and myself for cast off in 10-ish years.
  • I want to stay under $100k-ish all in, so $60-$70k for the boat (survey, taxes etc), $20-$30k for upgrades and refit, and $10k for the things I didn't think of. I don't mind having to do upgrades, in fact I would prefer some things (electronics) be left to me to upgrade, but I DO NOT want a project boat.

So, my remaining concerns:
  1. I have convinced myself I want a big heavy boat 37'-42' with a comfort rating in the 30's and better yet, the 40's. The description of my boat should include things like "balanced" and "kindly" and never "performance" or "racer/racing". I am very endeared with the Tayana Vancouver 42 and I've found a Tayana 37 in my local marina that looks too good to be true. I've also found a Cabo Rico 38 and several Island Packets in the 35'-38' range I like. My fear is I am starting to develop tunnel vision and I'm placing too much emphasis on numbers from sailboatdata. Besides heavy, balanced and kindly I would like a largish cockpit and a boat that we can board easily in 10 years. Does that mean sugar scoop and walk through transom? Are there other boats I should be looking at? I've looked (online) at Tartan, Bristol, Pearson, a Catalina 380, and even found an old Swan in my budget, but I keep drifting back to that Tayana (being close is a big plus). In fact, I am trying to set up a hard look in the next few days, but I am open to suggestions. I wish YachtWorld and BoatTrader allowed me to search by comfort rating and size of water tanks...
  2. If it comes to it, I wonder how to conduct a proper sea trial this far up the Hudson river. I would like to do the trial in something approaching realistic conditions for the boat, which is clearly unrealistic in Kingston NY. This is something I will face with any "local" boat I am able to find. Any suggestions?
  3. I've spoken with the broker (seems like a really nice guy) and he says there is moisture in deck and a soft spot on the cabin top. I need to confirm how big an area is wet, how wet is it, and how long has it been wet; it sounds like: not big, not very wet, and a long time.... but, how bad does it have to be before it is "walk away" bad? Will a survey include an estimated repair cost or should I get a separate estimate?
  4. Related to the sea trial; apparently a boat yard that winterized the boat removed some shrouds and either didn't replace them or didn't replace them properly and dismasted the boat when they tried to lift it. On the bright side the current owners received ~$45k of spars, sails, and rigging courtesy insurance, but I am worried that all the new bits haven't been properly tested, tuned, and debugged since I don't think it has been used much since.

Other things I know about Lion Heart:
  • She has the original black iron fuel tank under the vee berth and it is apparently in good condition.
  • The chainplates were not re-bedded when the new rig was installed.

Comments, thoughts, and suggestions are welcomed.

Cheers
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Old 05-11-2020, 23:20   #2
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Re: My turn... first new boat

Welcome aboard ksuderman!
My only connection to Tayana 37 is I know a guy with one in his garage so I have seen it from below! Seemed good to me! My feeling is that if you want that KIND of boat then the Tayana is probably a very good choice, and importantly, if it really catches your eye and fancy, and if you will be disappointed if someone else buys it first, then definitely get a good look at it. The fact that it has all new rigging is great! Tuning and bedding is not a big deal IMO. If it is "too good to be true" then my guess is the engine may be the culprit. A good survey will cover it all though. As far as a sea trial that puts a boat through its paces, I think that is very rare. And in your locale even more unlikely as you say. I think you'll have to accept the comments from owners as to performance. You might start a new thread with Tayana 37 in the name so you can get advice from owners here. Good luck!
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Old 06-11-2020, 05:24   #3
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Re: My turn... first new boat

You can gain some real life hints and practical knowledge from someone who has just gone through the purchase and refit process here;
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:11   #4
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Re: My turn... first new boat

A real good source for information on Tayanas is the owners group. You can search for it and ask to join. I did just such when I was really looking hard for a new boat last year. It's a large group of active members with encyclopedic amounts of information on all things Tayana.
In the end I chose a one off brand of boat for myself and family. But we had all the same criteria as you do, large, heavy, solid and blue water ability.

Best of luck,

Ken
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:04   #5
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Re: My turn... first new boat

We live in the Toronto area. When we were looking for a serious cruising boat (ended up with a Bristol 45.5) we not only looked at boats on Lake Ontario but from the Chesapeake to Maine. Meant lots of driving but it is a hugely important purchase. We combined boat shopping with a bit of touristing in the places we visited.

You should widen your search both geographically and within the boating range. You can't, for example, say 'Bristol' without acknowledging that there are two generations of Bristols that are very different. The decimal ones were aimed more upmarket than the earlier ones. Also designers varied which matters.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:27   #6
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Re: My turn... first new boat

I would strongly advise you to buy and read "How Not To Buy A Cruising Boat" by Deb and TJ Akey. It deals with boats in the size you are talking about, is available as a Kindle Book and isn't expensive and it gives loads of practical advice. It could save you a lot of money and wasted time.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:38   #7
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Re: My turn... first new boat

Tayana 37 + wet deck= big headache. They used a not so waterproof plywood. A lot of Tayana 37's need the entire deck removed and rebuilt.

First off Tayana has a great owner's group. tognews.comTons of good info and friendly owners. If the boat has/had teak decks I personally would pass on it.



There is a world of difference between a Tayana V42 and a 37, apples and oranges, night and day.


If you are looking at a Tayana 37 take special notice of chain plates, chain plate knees, deck, bow sprit and what motor is in it. Also see if you can get a surveyor who knows Tayana 37s.



If you have time you may want to wait a year or two. it's really a sellers market now for non project boats.



I have owned a Pearson 323, a Tartan 37-2 and now a Tayana V42CC. I would take any of them to the Caribbean. While you don't need a tank like a Tayana V42, IMHO there is something to be said a about a heavy boat for cruising. As in heavy is good for cruising. Surprisingly the V42 by virtue of a lot of canvas and nice hull is actually a good sailing boat, even in light air. So is a Tayana 37 if you have enough wind or sail.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:43   #8
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Re: My turn... first new boat

GREAT idea about not wanting a project boat. upgrades are easier in that you can decide what you want to do .. when you see fit. a black iron tank is going to be a BEAR to deal with if you need to replace. run from teak decks and wet core. i personally would go for a recent boat .. less than 30 years old. also check for insurance and dockage before you buy a boat.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:59   #9
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Re: My turn... first new boat

As far as the boat goes she is pretty basic. Not sure of the age of the electronics so that may or may not be a concern. The autohelm 3000 is old and probably still works. When I bought my boat it too had an old AP which was dead. I replaced the brain and added a new electronic compass and used the original hydraulic ram and all's well.

Survey. The surveyor should have a moisture meter to give you an idea of just how much area is affected. Then you will have a boatyard or some other independent professional to come in and give you an estimate. Surveyor won't do that. Understand that the estimate is not a quote . You won't know how bad it is until you open it up and at that point you are committed. Ex: On my previous boat their was rot everywhere but I really liked the boat and bought it anyway. There was one spot in the back about the size of a quarter, surveyor said just dig it out and fill it in, it's small, no big deal. I decided to open it up anyway and it was the very tip of the iceberg. The entire aft deck had to come out. This is a pretty extreme example and Tayana's are built differently then that leaky Teaky was.

Rigging. It's new! Should have all the parts. Hire a rigger. They will tell you if the rigging is good which it should be but also if it's installed correctly, is in tune etc..

Sea trial. Your local sea trial will confirm that the engine/transmission is working properly, that the winches, blocks etc are functional, that water is not coming into the boat, that the sails are in good condition etc.. Are the batteries charging, Auto pilot working, windlass working. All the mechanical things. As far as approximating real sea conditions, well, you need to go to sea for that. I've sailed Tayana's offshore. If I was to buy a monohull they would be at the top of my list as well as Island Packets and Valientes. . I'm not a fan of Swans. The ones I worked on left me very unimpressed.

This boat's ad also says it has a 3 bladed prop. Figure 4K for a folding 3 bladed prop. Also says "just reduced". It's wintertime. People selling in the winter are usually way motivated. If you like the boat after you see it and do your own inspection then offer them something less. My current boat was listed for 85K. I bought it for 47K. It needed a lot of work and there's always another boat to go look at.
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:06   #10
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Re: My turn... first new boat

Look at LOTS of boats that fit your criteria. This is a fun time! Enjoy it! This is the time when money stays in your wallet and should be enjoyed to the fullest. You will see features and configurations that may tickle your fancy or, on the flip side, things to shy away from. Donít fall in love with a boat that needs repair. (The Tayana) One repair, will lead to another and another and another. Get my drift? There are LOTS of boats out there. You have time on your side and can wait until the perfect boat presents itself. Listen and learn from each interaction. You will learn a lot. The more you learn, the less you will rely on the surveyor. They miss a ton of items. To be fair, its not realistic for one person to see and tell you everything about a boat.
The sea trial you speak of will only let you know things like; the engine starts and runs normally, the steering works, the sails go up and down, the gauges work, (or not) the rigging remains attached, THIS ONE TIME. No guarantee these things will work the next time. Thatís when money (lots of it) starts leaving your wallet.
Dreaming of owning, searching for, and finally owning a cruising style sailboat is an amazing experience.
Good Luck!
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:26   #11
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Re: My turn... first new boat

Welcome, Ksuderman!

I have a boat roughly equivalent in size to the Tayana 37, and I've always liked the looks of the Tayana. I find our Pearson 367 is more than enough for my wife and me, space-wise, and is easy enough for me to singlehand. As for the moisture identified in the foredeck and cabin-top, I would take that seriously and get a boatyard to check it and offer a rough estimate on repairs - it may change your mind about the boat.

If I were you, I would widen the geographic search area and look at more boats.
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:37   #12
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Re: My turn... first new boat

The Swan would be my choice. I have a spares kit for an Autohelm 3,000 off you go in that direction.
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Old 06-11-2020, 19:32   #13
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Re: My turn... first new boat

Only thing I have to add is that this style of boat is a bit of a pain to board on a mooring or at anchor. When we moved up into this size boat I was adamant about having a sensible boarding platform after caring for a friends traditionally styled boat while it spent a full season on our mooring. The mooring can get pretty lumpy and that is when you need to get aboard to check on it. Never felt fully comfortable and that was ten years ago. Time hasn't made me more nimble. Also the mention of wet decks would make me run and I'm thinking you have already said you don't want a project boat. That sounds like a project right of the start.
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Old 07-11-2020, 13:03   #14
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Re: My turn... first new boat

No one has mentioned it yet but for those who may not be aware a sea trial is not a test drive.
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Old 07-11-2020, 14:52   #15
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Re: My turn... first new boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksuderman View Post
- If it comes to it, I wonder how to conduct a proper sea trial this far up the Hudson river. I would like to do the trial in something approaching realistic conditions for the boat, which is clearly unrealistic in Kingston NY. This is something I will face with any "local" boat I am able to find. Any suggestions?

- I've spoken with the broker (seems like a really nice guy) and he says there is moisture in deck and a soft spot on the cabin top. I need to confirm how big an area is wet, how wet is it, and how long has it been wet; it sounds like: not big, not very wet, and a long time.... but, how bad does it have to be before it is "walk away" bad? Will a survey include an estimated repair cost or should I get a separate estimate?

- Related to the sea trial; apparently a boat yard that winterized the boat removed some shrouds and either didn't replace them or didn't replace them properly and dismasted the boat when they tried to lift it. On the bright side the current owners received ~$45k of spars, sails, and rigging courtesy insurance, but I am worried that all the new bits haven't been properly tested, tuned, and debugged since I don't think it has been used much since.

- The chainplates were not re-bedded when the new rig was installed.
Howdy!

Quite the first post - I like how you’ve got a good idea of what you want and timeframes.

Good call on getting the “right boat” now and skipping a project.

The sea trial far up a river is a tough one. How far are you / long would it take you to get to open ocean (and out of the river)?

Have the surveyor show you where the wet deck is... if it’s small it’s probably fixable; if it’s a larger spot and right near the mast base or under the traveller, it’s going to be a bigger repair job.

A new rig is great! Sure, it’ll need to be tuned and tweaked, but the chainplates will also need to be bedded, so now’s a great time to drop the rig, have a rigger check it all over (halyards, sheaves, wind indicators, swap lights for LEDs, etc etc), bed the chainplates, then put it all back up and have the rigger tune it. It’ll cost a bit, but then you’ll have confidence in the rig.

Good luck with it all and feel free to ask as many q’s as you need... we’re all here to help!

N
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