Main and mizzen furling options

[Na Mara]

As others have said . Fully battened sails. 3x reefing pennants, 3x tack lines, stackpack to catch it all when you release the halyard, maybe a down haul on the headboards if needed. Mast steps to ease putting on sail covers when docked.

If it was a sloop I’d suggest a fourth reef in the main to avoid having to rig a trysail. But as it’s a motor sailor ketch you’re probably going to be jib, jigger and iron genny in any rough stuff so you won’t need a storm rig on the main.

You’ll only need to climb to the sails to close and open sail bags on leaving and arriving at the boat. Worst case, use a step ladder.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David Pakes

I agree with your approach – you want to avoid having to go forward on deck as much as possible and particularly wrestling with sails etc in a seaway.
On my boat I rarely have to leave the cockpit to adjust sails.
I have a furling genoa/yankee on the forestay and a furling staysail on the inner forestay. Both work exceedingly well and I have never had any problems. I service them at the start of every season.
My mainsail is in-mast furling. When it works I love it and, in light weather, it doesn’t matter what tack I am on when I want to set or furl it.
I have never had any problems furling but, on occasions, have had problems unfurling. The impression I get is that, somehow, the sail unfurls a bit when furled inside the mast and when I want to unfurl it, it gets stuck. My SOP to fix this is to refurl the sail as tight as I can then slowly unfurl it, it might take several tries before it comes smoothly out. I might be doing something wrong but, in my defence, sometimes there are no problems whatsoever and other times it’s a pain in the backside and when you least expect it.
So, I have often contemplated an external mainsail furler assuming that it will perform as well as the headsails as there would be no friction like the inside of a mast, although I have no experience with this system whatsoever. So, I suggest, talk to those who have an external mainsail furler.
Whatever, anything you can do to minimize leaving the cockpit is worth looking at seriously. Your partner will also be much happier – my wife and other sailing partners I know don’t like it when the skipper leaves the cockpit and goes forward, with or without harnesses, jacklines, etc. The thought of you going over the side is horrendous. Stay in the cockpit.
Good luck.

I've had both good in-mast furling (Selden) and behind the mast furling, and believe me, you do NOT want to convert to behind the mast furling.



If you're having trouble with your in-mast furling, as assuming it's a good system in the first place, then you just need to make it work better:


1. In mast-furling systems don't tolerate baggy sails. The sail should be cut right (rather flat), should be in good condition (no bagginess), and best of all, it should be laminate which is more flexible and thinner and greatly improves the functioning of in-mast furling. Best best of all is laminate sail with Dyneema taffeta which is a dream in the in-mast furling system because it is so smooth and slippery.



2. In-mast furling needs maintenance. The foil needs to be properly tensioned (not too tight), and you need to keep everything cleaned and lubricated.


3. You need to follow whatever protocol is required for your setup. Normally the boom must be horizontal when furling or unfurling and you will have big problems if not. Some systems like a little tension on the outhaul as the sail goes in. My setup likes for me to unroll the foil with the furling line as I pull out the sail with the outhaul. YMMV, but once you get 1 and 2 right, then you should experiment with 3 until you find the formula that works.


Once you do, you should have no further problems. I have had one serious jam in 11 years and 10s of thousands of miles, in all kinds of weather. The one jam was in the first months of ownership, when I was still clueless.

[barnakiel]

But converting this boat to in-mast will be $$$.


In case of say Selden, this would need to be a custom job as their extrusions are too flimsy for this displacement.


b.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

But converting this boat to in-mast will be $$$.

Absolutely. Would be pure madness unless the masts are buggered and he needs new ones anyway.



The OP needs stack pack and batt cars.

[wingssail]

Simply remove the sails. They are not needed or useful on this type of boat.

Seriously.

But if you are adamant that you want to try to sail it, the most economical approach would be to install a good lazy jack set-up, a couple of mast steps on each mast and new sail covers. This will allow you to drop the sails, tidy them, and put the covers on. Lube the tracks and slides, and learn how to unload the sail so it will come down. You may have to go onto your mast steps and pull the luff down if it sticks and use tippy toes to get the halyard off the headboard and the cover on. I know people who use a wooden step ladder to reach up to the higher parts of the dowsed sail.

Most people I know with this type of boat find sailing is so unrewarding, and so much work, that they soon give it up entirely and stick to motoring. It will be excellent for that.

On the other hand, a well designed sailing yacht of this size does work. Gene and Robbie's Davidson 60 Noason had this type of sail handling system, at least on the main, and they managed it quite well by standing on the coach roofs. This boat was a excellent sailing vessel, even though it was ferro-cement. Amazing!

(They also, over the course of several of years made trips between Australia and Northern Vanuatu and finally carried enough building materials on thier boat to build a complete Yacht Club complex for the villagers of Asenvari, Vanautu. Great story and great boat. https://wingssail.blogspot.com/2002/...sers-make.html They have now downsized to a Beneteau 49.)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Simply remove the sails. They are not needed or useful on this type of boat.. .

Disagree. That's a narrow, racer's point of view. Very few cruising boats can go upwind. For anything else, that boat and those sails are fine. 90% of cruising boats are basically motorsailers, or at least, are used like that, and there is nothing wrong with that.


Basically, you motor upwind or in light wind, especially downwind in light wind. You have a lot of wind or a nice reach, and you sail or motorsail. The smaller rig of most motorsailers, in addition, extends the wind range upwards so you can do some nice sailing in conditions which are rather strong for normal boats.



The underbody form of these boats is no good for going to windward, but you don't sail to windward anyway -- you've got the big motor and big tankage for that. Plus you have the pilothouse for getting out of the weather.



In my opinion it's an excellent formula and something many, possibly most cruisers would be better served by that what they have.



The "gentleman's motor sailer" was very popular in the UK in the 60's and 70's. Moody made some hyper expensive ones which are highly desired even today. Some of them even had twin engines.



Nauticat is of course the other popular make of motorsailer, and these are being built to this day.



In my opinion motorsailers are not as popular as they used to be for one simple reason -- they are very expensive to make, and so uncompetitive in a market dominated by cheap mass produced lightly built sailboats.

[David Pakes]

Many thanks Dockhead.

I more or less do what you suggest including regular servicing the in-mast Selden furler. My mainsail is pretty heavy duty fabric and still in good shape so I am unlikely to replace it with a sail as you recommend, which certainly sounds great, and for dollar reasons only. I also had it recut relatively recently to make it flatter as it has some years of service. Nevertheless, it is in good condition so really don't want to replace it.

Anyway, appreciate your advice and so perhaps a bit more experimenting might be in order as you suggest.

Fair winds.

[Dockhead]

Ok, well, keep at it until it works right. I would sell the boat before I put up with the kind of nonsense you described.

[Manateeman]

Hi. As I posted before, nice boat. I thank Dockhead because he gave you good advice to just ignore some comments. You will find in every harbor, an ex racing boater who will ask you why you have masts and sails. These skippies are experts at all things and “athletic” sailors. Boatbuilders, salvage and rescuers often see them after they’ve had their fin keels or spade rudders lost or their skinny masts twisted. Some have fancy blogs. Fancy paint jobs. You’ll see a spiffy self sailing unit on the reverse transom but no way to get back on the boat alone. They never heard of Natalie Woods.
Love the Texas saying all hat, no cattle. Happy trails to you.
Mark, an unrushed manatee.

[DHHerndon]

Originally Posted by Captain Bligh

Hi all,
I am interested in purchasing this boat . But the mainsail boom is about 7 - 8 feet off the deck. The mizzen boom is about the same. I would be using the boat for a lot of weekend trips. Climbing up there seems precarious. In fact, the whole process of climbing up there, working to furl the sails and then wrestle the cover on seems unnecessarily dangerous and extraordinarily time consuming for weekend use. I'm thinking I would more inclined to use the sails more often if I had a half decent furling system for those two sails.



If I was willing to get new sails or modify the existing inventory, what would be my best and/or most cost effective furling system for single/double handed operation?

I have seen external furlers (pro furl) on the masts of sister boats of this model that seem to operate well.
I am wondering what, if any, modifications need to be made to the boom to accommodate that type of external furler.



Are the external furling systems the best product to retrofit for this application? Am on the right track (no pun intended,) or is there a better furling system I could consider.


Thank you for your help.
CB

I had a similar problem with my Fisher 25 Motorsailer, but totally solved it by putting roller-reefing-furling gear (https://www.furlings.com) on all four of my sails (genoa, main, mule, and mizzen. I, at 82 years old, can now easily singlehanded put up, reef, or furl all sails in less than two minutes.

[Mainstreet]

Stack pack, tides sail track and Roller bearing bat cars with fully battened sails. As insurance a down haul line from the head to a comfortable position on the main or mizzen masts. I had this rig on a Morgan 462 with a hardtop and never had an issue either raising, lowering or furling. You can see the rig on my avatar.

[jalmberg]

What does the current owner do? Climbing the mast just to strike the main seems like a design flaw. I suspect there is a trick you aren’t aware of yet, BTW, Big boats make terrible day sailers in the best of circumstances. You sure this is really the boat you want?

[Oohla]

It seems to me that one of the nicest things about this forum is the reticence demonstrated by respondents to those possibly hapless potential buyers of misbegotten boats. Mention something about an anchor or one’s obligation as the stand on vessel and best be advised to don your flak jacket! (Available on Amazon). But proclaim an intent to buy the boat of your dreams - at a reasonable price - and it’s all puppies and rainbows.

And you - or at least me - gotta love the heartfelt practical solutions to a potentially impossible problem. Just another reason why I log in daily. It’s so much more interesting than my day job

Anyway, OP, I would post an opening for a really tall crew member. Maybe a giraffe. Please don’t call me flippant. I’m typing this on my iPhone after a martini- ok 2 - and it requires considerable concentratiokkkk

OK. So Shoot me. I guess I should create a new online persona. But before deleting this persona: OP. Ya outta yo mind about this boat?

Go for easy. Find the easiest and cheapest means of fulfilling your dreams.
Your dreams are more important than any particular boat.

[DGH]

Most of the posters on this subject are missing the point. This boat is a (very nice) MOTOR sailer. It will be motoring for 80-90 percent of its usage. The sails are for steadying and downwind assistance. Hence ease of deploying is highly desirable and behind mast furling would be perfect. Preferably electric or hydraulic powered. In-mast would be even better if major expense is not a problem.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...Very few cruising boats can go upwind... For anything else, that boat and those sails are fine. 90% of cruising boats are basically motorsailers, or at least, are used like that, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Dockhead, I think maybe you are in the wrong part of the world. Walking the docks here I count about 75% of the cruising boats (boats which arrived here on a leg of a long distance cruise) are definitely capable of sailing up wind. Most, now days, are fin keel, spade rudder, sloops or cutters. Hell, even my friend's Westsail 43 is capable upwind. I have sailed on two Westsail 43's and while not terrific performers, they sail OK. Steve, on Southern Cross, does quite well in the local races. Also there are several Island Packet boats of varying sizes, which are not great upwind either, but not impossible, and very nice otherwise. These boats however are definitely outnumbered by really nice sailing boats which consist of C&C's, Beneteau's, Jeanneau's J-Boats, old race boats, custom yachts, and a lot of generic racer cruisers which look pretty modern and capable.

Times are changing.

But you are right, most of them are used as motor sailors. And there is nothing wrong with that.

However, I wonder if you read my whole post. While I questioned the reasoning behind trying to make sailing that boat much easier, I gave some very concrete suggestions on how to improve the sail handling, which several others have echoed. I also said that probably they wouldn't actually sail it very much, it's just too dang much work for so little reward, so don't spend a lot of money on it. I stand by that. And I suggested an alternative to that boat.