In production 27 ft sailboats.

[AKA-None]

If you can find one a southerly might be nice for day sailing even into thin water?
I don’t recall if the small ones are still in production or even if the builder is still around
Just checked they have a 33

[Lexi22]

Originally Posted by Hamish_ct

why stuck at 27 ft. 30 ft is more common and gives you what you want.
Catalina 275 is a good solid choice.
Beneteau First is not too much to handle good boat for a day sail and a family.

actually, as of right now, with my current sailing skills and experience, i shouldn't consider anything longer than 22ft. Still, wanted to check 27ft-ers to see what we have in the market. i'll buy used, but first, i want to take a few sailing classes, and probably, sail a couple of catalina 22s there; that hands on experience will decide for me about what should i get as a first boat.
the new bene first is like a roadster, catalina 275 is more reasonable, but still, i decided to keep that money and spend a fraction of it on a used boat.

[Lexi22]

Originally Posted by Ryan

don't think a trimaran is any more maintenance. Finding a slip can be a challenge as you probably don't want to leave it in the water folded all the time. But with the shallow draft, I was able to get a great spot in a marina that would have been too shallow for a monohull.
I'd suggest watching some Corsair videos.

good to know. i watched guite a few videos about them. they are fast.

[Hamish_ct]

Lexi22 - a few thoughts. try getting on a boat as crew. Running the cans as crew on beer can night will give you tons of great experience, gets you in with the local sailors and you will be able to see many different boats.

Also, there really isn't much of a difference between a 22ft boat and a 30ft boat. The extra 8 ft makes the boat more stable. I have a friend who never sailed and went out and bought a J109. I thought he was a little crazy to spend that much money on his first sailboat, but he had no trouble learning how to sail it and now sails all the local regattas and cruises with his family on it.

Its a good decision to buy used, and take an on the water sailing course. What is disturbing about most new sailors is that they don't know the rules, navigation in a harbor, Starboard boat has rights, what to do in rough conditions etc. If you still want to go 22 ft, J22 is a great boat. Much more simple than a J24 to sail. Solid boat, has a small cabin, no head or galley. Get a trailer to store the boat. inexpensive to maintain and buying sails, used or new is not a huge expense.

Good luck

[Lexi22]

Originally Posted by Hamish_ct

try getting on a boat as crew.
there really isn't much of a difference between a 22ft boat and a 30ft boat.
Its a good decision to buy used, and take an on the water sailing course. What is disturbing about most new sailors is that they don't know the rules, navigation in a harbor, Starboard boat has rights, what to do in rough conditions etc. If you still want to go 22 ft, J22 is a great boat. Much more simple than a J24 to sail. Solid boat, has a small cabin, no head or galley. Get a trailer to store the boat. inexpensive to maintain and buying sails, used or new is not a huge expense.

Hey man,
I don't do good socializing with strangers. I cannot be a crew. I'm an introvert. I can't do small talks or ever act mainstream to fit in.
On my end, there is a big difference between a 22ft and a 30ft. While hanging out here, I've been also thinking about what I'll do with my new sailboat. I've put some thought into this, what better thing to do in my spare time these days?! I've been also looking at catamarans and such... Here is the thing, I won't be living on board for the next ~15 years at least. How many times will I be able to, let's say, take a vacation to the Bahamas in a sailboat in between - not many times. So if I wanna vacation of a couple of weeks on board, I'll simply charter, no need to buy and maintain something over 30ft just for the rare occasion. I thought, my 27ft-er would be a starter boat, a step before a serious one, but actually it probably will be much more than that. Also I know that I'll sail almost everyday, and a few sleep over weekends might occur from time to time. So my understanding of what I wanna do with the boat is also maturing in time. Now, I have a more solid idea about the matter than the time I started this thread.
Let's compare Catalina 22 and 315, in 22 there is a portapotty and an outboard, very practical - just hop on it and sail. In 315, there is a long list of items needing endless maintenance - most of the things that I won't ever use... If 315 were offered with a portapotty and a icebox only, then it would make sense to me. I was deliberating about ~27ft boats as most of the new ones have ultra simple galleys and tad bit better heads than a portapotty - way civilized. Some 27ft-ers come with inboard, some with outboard. Both would be easy to maintain. If I pick inboard, the only issue would be if a replacement of the diesel might be necessary, but a new well maintained diesel dying in ~15 yrs? I don't think so. You see, all of a sudden those 27ft sailboats makes a lot sense. In my situation, buying it brand new is also not a bad idea.
Trailoring and solutions like that won't work for me. What will I do then? Buy a Ram or an F150? What's next? Country music?! Bad jokes aside, that will just increase my expenditures. I don't like big suburban houses with garages or the suburban lifestyle itself. Nope, no way!
I'm also considering used, and other options, as advised here, by this great community, makes a lot of sense, but eventually, I'll have to do my own thing.
With all the changes and planning considered, I've started to think that a 27ft-er low maintenance day sailor with a weekender capability would still be the best option for me as brand new. In 15- 20 years, I'll get the worth of my money, and still won't be spending a dime on anything I won't be needing at all. At this point, I might consider a 30ft or even longer if it's a day sailor design. I'll be sailing a catalina 22, I bet it'll be that boat, at the classes I'll take, and then, I think a 27ft-er will be a good option. I'll still consider 5-10 year old used boats and such, but we'll see. I'm kinda postponing the research, as other than looking at boat photos and specs online, not much would be accomplished here.
There are options brand new when one delved deep into the specs, Catalina 275 is not bad, there are some expensive but good looking ones like the Saffier designs. Benes, Jboats, abd such... I'll be investigating them all.

[LF4]

Originally Posted by Hamish_ct

Also, there really isn't much of a difference between a 22ft boat and a 30ft boat.
Good luck

Can confirm. All of my hours have been spent on boats 21-27 feet in length. The sailing experiences are indistinguishable from each other when it comes to sailing difficulty.

[Lexi22]

Originally Posted by LF4

Can confirm. All of my hours have been spent on boats 21-27 feet in length. The sailing experiences are indistinguishable from each other when it comes to sailing difficulty.

Talking generally and considering current production sailboats, no significance difference between ~22 and ~27 ft. BUT when ever you step up to something ~30 ft - not the sailing performance - the amount of things to maintenance triples, so as the price. I explained clearly in the post above.

[Hamish_ct]

Good luck with your search. My bet is that your sailing course will be a J22. Most common boat for sailing classes. In fact I am purchasing two for our club ladies learn to sail program.

Please tell this group what you decide to do and how your experiences are.

Fair Winds

[laila23]

Originally Posted by Benz

Both the boats in the OP are meant for racing--they're little more than big racing dinghies, and as such will have a whole bunch of tweaky little control lines who's use will be a mystery to someone who is new at this whole thing. If you want to learn to sail, I'd think a Com-pac or Alerion would be better--simpler rigs, less lines, less expense to replace and maintain.
The racers will require more high-tech sails, replaced more often, to maintain optimum performance, and all the tweaky little lines are disgustingly expensive. The rig will need professional tuning every year to stay in tune--it's a hassle for all but the gung-ho racer.

This was the most helpful and eye-opener post ever. I thought Catalina 275 (without the upgraded sails) and Bene First 27 (the fixed keel, inboard diesel version - not the seascape) were trailerable, equipped with easy to tune low maintenance rigs & sails, down to Earth kind of vessels. Your post made me one step closer to Compac 27. Alerions are gorgeous but pricey. Well, I'd love to learn about the sailboats you recommend for the occasion. TY Benz.

[TrentePieds]

Hello again Lexi :-)

The below has been sitting for a coupla days while I've had to attend to the things that pay for the boat. It's as valid now, after the slew of posts that have arrived on your thread since it was written, as it was then. My stuff is interspersed with yours as appropriate, and in bold italics

Hey TP,
How r u doing?

I sometimes feel as if your intent is to see how many newbie sailors you can politely offend a day!? Your posts contains no grammatical mistakes, and you make such complex but flawless sentences that the whole process has gotta be a form of art!? Kudos on that...!?

Ooh – You're a brave young woman. And perceptive with it! I salute you:-)!!

I have a low tolerance for what in my private moments I call “slack-ass English”. English is a majestic language when she's spoke like she ought to be spoke. For a sample of how it's done, check either the American PBS or the Canadian “Knowledge Network” for Monty Don's discourses on gardens. Stunningly good English!

Anyhow... You can offend me all you want, TP.

The last thing I would want to do is offend you, but you should know that in my teaching days I was known as a hard taskmaster. If, knowing that, you wish to talk boats and boat design and have a desire to become as opinionated as I am, then I'm at your service :-)

How about recommending me a couple of good, easy to understand, and to the point books written for new sailors?

Sure. Of course! Start with the aforementioned Beiser book: The Proper Yacht. If your local antiquarian is up to snuff, he can sell you a copy for rather less than the price of a hand-me-down cruising boat The beauty of the book is that it presents a straight-forward, well considered discourse on what cruising is all about. Twixt the chapters that do that, there are drawings of a dozen or more cruising yachts from the very small such as Sopranino (19 feet LOA) by that doyen of British yacht designers, Laurent Giles, to the very big such as Minot's Light (58 feet LOA) by the equally worthy American designer John Alden. Somewhere in the middle is the fabled experimental twin-keeler Bluebird of Thorne by Arthur Robb. Along with each drawing is a straightforward discussion of the design desiderata for the particular yacht. This book will give you the philosophical ballast that will keep you on your feet as you begin to delve into increasingly technical stuff.

I don't want to waste my time from one book to another; I've read one for example, and the whole book as nothing but the writer trying to impress the other sailors out there. The book was marketed as a good starting point but in actuality meant nothing for a newbie like me.

Durng this idling time, I wanna learn as much theory as I can. I feel I lack of important theorical knowledge about sailing, and the more I learn, the more I discover the sad fact that I'm simply ignorant in this world of my new aspirations. Before making any purchasing decision, I want to fix that.

BRAVO! But always remember that sailing and, in the wider sense seafaring, is a PRACTICAL endeavour, and while for some purposes theory is useful and sometimes even essential, the sort of sailing I imagine you'll be doing for some while (basing my notion on the boats you've shown interest in) does NOT require theory. The practical boat handling you'll need to get started I could teach you in a single weekend. What you need to know to become a good globetrotting skipper will take you a lifetime to learn – as it did for all of us. :-)

What you need to learn to this latter end is really all booklarnin'. But we an talk about that later. The singular thing to know about that, at you present stage of development, is that you must be SYSTEMATIC about it. I judge from your little list of desiderata that you are naturally inclined to be systematic so you are off to a very good start :-) Consider also, please, that it is precisely because so much of what you need to know to be a skipper is best learned from books that we have marine academies – universities for seafarers.

I don't think this summer I will be buying anything, but I, at least, want to take some classes and gain hands on experience. The following summer...? Well, if I'm alive, I'll see what shall happen.

I'm sure we'll be alive. Just at the present moment one way to facilitate that is never to breathe air that has already been through someone else's lungs :-) I was pleased to see that you've come off the “only buy new”— kick. In the boat ownership game buying new is a gargantuan waste of money. But we can come back later to why that is :-)

These days, I'm doing stupid things like researching about sailboats and randomly learning sailing 'things.' I think I'm going no where. After I have some hands on experience and training during my first few classes, I think I'll have a clear idea of my skills and what I want to have in / do with a sailboat; the right sailboat will present itself then...

Oho! As Goethe put it: “das also [ist] des Pudels Kern”


I've just recently started to make sense of ratios and the keel designs. There is so much more, sails, navigation, diesels, and the list goes on.

“A journey of a thousand miles...” and all that. Just go slow. Create a system that suits your particular psyche and style of learning for committing what you learn to some sort of intellectual archive. I burn through ring binders like they were going out of style :-0).

One more thing before I bid you good night: I have never required of my students that they must adopt my views. I do expect my students, if defeat my arguments they will, to do so with reasoned arguments of their own supported by cited authorities. So don't be afraid to PM me :-)!


TrentePieds

[Lexi22]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Beiser book: The Proper Yacht
So don't be afraid to...

Afraid? Me? Lol! When I walk the streets, the Devil steps aside!? Still, I probably won't PM.
I've already ordered the book. $2.99 on Amazon - 'used -' hopefully in one piece!?
Dear Sir, thank you for your valuable time & help. I appreciated it greatly.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by laila23

This was the most helpful and eye-opener post ever. I thought Catalina 275 (without the upgraded sails) and Bene First 27 (the fixed keel, inboard diesel version - not the seascape) were trailerable, equipped with easy to tune low maintenance rigs & sails, down to Earth kind of vessels. Your post made me one step closer to Compac 27. Alerions are gorgeous but pricey. Well, I'd love to learn about the sailboats you recommend for the occasion. TY Benz.

Very nice of you to say so. Happy to be of help!

[thomm225]

This lady also bought boats in the 26-28 foot range but she bought used.

Her last boat had a diesel almost new, but she pulled that out and went engineless for a while. She had a boyfriend at that time that helped her, but now she has an outboard.

Her first boat a Pearson Ariel 26 (with an old outboard) is what she used to travel from Canada to Florida and then back up to the Chesapeake Bay where she bought the Great Dane 28.

I think she has been at this now for nearly 11 years. (all documented on her website. see link below)

She is also a part time writer and does a lot of her boat maintenance herself.

Looks like her new crew is a cat.

Dinghy Dreams – Road to the Sea

[Lexi22]

Not that I consider brand new sailboats anymore, but to conclude this list, I would also suggest an Oceanis 30.1. It can be ordered with tiller rudder, small diesel, and when all the upgrades opted out, it makes a brilliant day sailor / weekender as bare bones.

[Speedy99]

Well, this has been a bit of a wild ride of a thread. From new 27-foot to used 22 in only 7 pages!?!?

One thing nobody mentioned was taking a close look at the cockpit of these smaller boats. The J/70 (and First 27) are boats with a very shallow cockpit - you ride "on" the boat, not "in" the boat. The Catalina 275 (and the upcoming J-9 at 28 feet) are the few "new" production boats with a more robust cockpit. As others have mentioned, the rig stats tell the story (or the PHRF rating as a proxy) - the "sport" boats are really not for beginners, and probably will end in frustration. You need years of experience to trim them properly, and if you are not planning to race, they are not a good match anyway. The First may pretend to be a cruiser, but its definitely more of a racer - like the J/70.

I read this thread with some interest, as I'm actually looking at shifting from a J/70 to a Catalina 275 (or similar), because I no longer want/need the racing aspect, and I now live in a place where daysailing (and single-handing) on the open ocean is more common than racing on the bay for me. I also have a 27-foot restriction, mainly because that is the max size I can fit in a slip locally (unless I want to wait a decade for the 30 foot slips or hassle trailering). I don't have to buy new, but I certainly sympathize with the maintenance issue. I have found very limited choices in the "less than 5 years old, 27 foot max, need a head and a (minimal) cabin, comfortable cockpit, easy to single-hand, stable and handles well for coastal daysailing" category.