Freestanding mast opinions wanted

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Here is a contribution to this debate that should be taken seriously:

https://www.ericwsponberg.com/free-s...-mast-designs/
TrentePieds

I did take it seriously. I read this page a few months ago, and it certainly contributed to my understanding about the design. I also have a wonderful book printed in the 70s by the Maine Cat Boat association, so I understand your comment on the work boats of yore, which I am sure you know became the club racers of the late 19th century.

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by gamayun

I bought a 1988 Freedom 38 almost 10 years ago as a newbie who had recently took up sailing. I'm not familiar with the other boats you are considering. I am also a singlehander and soloed with Kynntana from California to Hawaii and back in 2018.

Thanks for your input and even more important, the inspiration. Hats off to you Gamayun!

[blubaju]

AeroRig, Google for that, free standing rotating mast, no problems all ten years I owned my cat, very easy sailing, unless for reefing no need to go to the mast. Only one sheet. Mast & boom carbon. I vacuum-baked my own as an import to the Philippines was not impossible but expensive and terrible complicated, anyway, I love building. Hence from me: highly recommend!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Clemson

I am a novice, and aspiring single handed sailor. I live on the New Hampshire coast and am planning to buy a freestanding mast sailboat that is capable of offshore sailing. After a couple of seasons of becoming one with my chosen vessel with cruises locally, Maine to Mass, I would like to be able to cruise the Canadian maritime, or south to Florida, where I realize a shallow draft would be important. If all goes well I would like to take the same boat across the Atlantic to Ireland.
So my question to those with experience aboard Freedoms, Nonsuch, Innovator, Tanton and the like, is which particular model am I looking for.
Also opinions on wishbone vs. standard boom. Two smaller sails or one large on?
Thanks, and I will be responding to any input.

My experience is with a Freedom 40 cat ketch (I am not sure of the actual model): The owners were in-laws of mine, an older couple who sailed it for many years on the west coast and Mexico. I was aboard several times.
It had two free standing tapered carbon fiber masts and two wishbone booms. The sails, on normal mast tracks on the aft of the mast, when lowered, fall into bags hanging from the wishbones.

My observations:
I did not like the inconvenience of the sails which were far above the deck when furled. They were hard to reach and hard to deal with. This of course made removal or reattachment quite a big deal in my opinion. Even more seriously they were not tightly bundled when reefed. Without headsails the main and mizzen were quite large and reefing was a hassle. I think the amount of windage from the reefed sail would be a problem.
It goes without saying that the wishbone booms were completely out of reach.
Another issue which I observed was problems with the attachments to the mast, cabling, etc.
And I was not impressed with the windage of the huge diameter masts.

On the positive side, the owners felt that sailing was easy (no sheets to tack, etc) and that it was fast when full sails could be used.

[Clemson]

Though I an fairly certain an AeroRig way beyond my budget, I do appreciate you bringing this design to my attention. I love innovation and conceptualizing how things work. Articles on this rig will make for some great afternoon reading.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by gamayun

... benefits of an unstayed rig. One is how it bends and depowers in high wind so I can carry more sail for longer and easier than stayed rigs...

I am just a bit curious about that. If you have a full sail up and the wind increases so that the rig bends and the sail depowers, doesn't that mean that the sail is flogging off to leeward?

I mean, you have the same amount of canvass up and it if is not filled and overpowering the boat what is it doing?

The best I can imagine is that it is twisted off and not filled, and therefore must tend to flogging?

OK, if the sail is fine in 15 knots of wind, perhaps you can carry it to 20 by allowing the mast to bend off, but 25? I wonder.

Maybe for day sailing it is good, but heavy weather, I doubt it.

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I did not like the inconvenience of the sails which were far above the deck when furled. They were hard to reach and hard to deal with. This of course made removal or reattachment quite a big deal in my opinion.

This kind of input is great, and I thank you. I am wondering if you were on the 40' with a raised aft cabin, those booms do seem higher than the flat deck 40'.

Though the extra length would probably be a plus if and when I venture further offshore, debatable, I am looking into the 32'-36' range with one mast.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Clemson

This kind of input is great, and I thank you. I am wondering if you were on the 40' with a raised aft cabin, those booms do seem higher than the flat deck 40'.

Though the extra length would probably be a plus if and when I venture further offshore, debatable, I am looking into the 32'-36' range with one mast.

It's been five years, but I seem to recall that boat hads a regular cabin with windows, etc.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I am just a bit curious about that. If you have a full sail up and the wind increases so that the rig bends and the sail depowers, doesn't that mean that the sail is flogging off to leeward?



I mean, you have the same amount of canvass up and it if is not filled and overpowering the boat what is it doing?



The best I can imagine is that it is twisted off and not filled, and therefore must tend to flogging?



OK, if the sail is fine in 15 knots of wind, perhaps you can carry it to 20 by allowing the mast to bend off, but 25? I wonder.



Maybe for day sailing it is good, but heavy weather, I doubt it.

No flogging. It just dumps wind off the top so I don't feel the knock as other boats do. I have to keep tightening the downhaul because it will "bulge" at the leach as the mast bends back. The power in a sloop-rigged Freedom is all in the main. It has a very annoying self tending jib. I can go downwind with main alone as fast as most spinnaker boats my size. Light wind is not my friend but she's also 10 tons of boat and I don't know many who can go fast upwind in light air at 10 tons. I am running a genaker now so that helps for light air, off wind sailing. I haven't yet got the right sized spinnaker set up. For upwind sailing above 10 knots, and so that we are comparing apples somewhat to apples, I know my Freedom can match or sails better than Catalina 38, Hylas 49, Contessa 33, Beneteau 37, etc. The main thing is to have the right sail. I bought her with a baggy main and it was like a switch was turned on the power when I got a new main. I can really flatten it in high wind and don't need to reef when I'm solo until TWS is around 18 knots consistent. She is super easy to sail and is sturdy at sea.

I have had people walk by my boat and ask "aren't you afraid to sail that thing?" or "what do you hang onto without stays?" I think a lot of people are simply afraid of what they don't know or would never take a road less traveled for fear of stepping out of a secure zone. It's OK. I completely understand.

The OP asked about keels. Mine is a 5.5' fin keel. The rudder is beefy and digs hard. I don't have a lot of weather helm and the only time I've rounded up was when I had full sails up in 30 knots. I was by myself and wanted to see what would happen. Newbs...

[NakedCity]

Clemson, if a freestanding rig what you want I don’t think you could go very wrong with anything that Freedom Yachts ever built. TPI (Tillotson - Pearson) was a top quality builder and Gary Hoyt a real free thinker.

I have owned/raced & cruised traditionally rigged sloops for 45 years and have loved them all , some more, some less. I have also been personally involved with a beautiful Freedom 40 for the last 13 years which came with an amazing lady who had it built new with her deceased husband. According to her the original wishbones were a real PITA and she and her husband converted to track/slugs/boom which I understand production shifted to. I have been constantly managing improvements and refinements to make it easier for 2 not youngsters to cruise each year to the Bahamas.

Some of the more important upgrades involve sail handling. Had North Sails build a really nice stack pack / lazy jack / Tides Marine low friction track system for both sails. We also re-engineered the single line reefing removing internal boom purchase systems and leading nearly all controls to a cabin top Harken power winch , only the centerboard ( which has its on winch ) and the mizzen sheet have to be hand ground , never have to leave the cockpit until it’s time to use the power anchor windless although I could use the remote from the cockpit I just like watching it from the bow.

The bow thruster install has been AWESOME !

Every boat has trade offs and some do certain things better than other. I would have a marina full if I could. Complete disclosure one of the carbon fiber masts did break when the boat was 25 years old. Carbon fiber was pretty new stuff in 1980. TPI was actually doing carbon fiber work for NASA. I would definitely want insurance footing that bill should it happen again.

All in all I love that Freedom 40 and the lady it came with and can’t wait to get back to the Bahamas this year after missing last year because of “everything”

[NakedCity]

Good Article

https://goodoldboat.com/freestanding-rigs/

[adjo]

Originally Posted by Stewie12

I owned a Freedom. Very comfortable boat to sail in downwind. Spent a lot of time motor sailing to go upwind.

I delivered a Freedom 40 cat ketch down the E Australian coast back in the day.

It was dangerous running downwind in a formed sea as the bow would bury and then tend to sheer off and try to broach. It took a big effort to bring it back on course. We just about rammed into a big channel marker because of this.
I would hate to cross even a slightly breaking bar and was relieved to finish the delivery and hand it over to the new owners.

Weight of the mast in the bow? Hull shape? Combination?
I didn't sail the boat long enough to come to a firm conclusion.

[peter57]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Sailboats for cruising with a free-standing mast are rather exotic, and this for many good reasons. The most important question is: Why do you want such a boat?

If it's because you love the look and are willing to make a lot of sacrifices to get one, this is a very valid reason. No further discussion is needed, it's your dream. It's just like people into wooden boats, junk rigged boats or boats without engines. Go and live your dream!

However if you think it's because a free-standing mast gives you any benefit / makes it easier to sail / is safer, please forget about this requirements. There's a solid 100% chance that whatever you think / read about the benefits of of the free-standing mast can be achieved quite as well or better with other boats too - probably in a more easy manner. And if not, the benefits of the free-standing mast are minimal. As a novice you'll most like have no clue where the real challenges lie.

For example single-handing a well set up regular bermuda rig isn't that much more effort that the solution offered by freestanding mast boats. Sometimes a little more hassle, sometimes easier, but overall it's about the same or easier with a bermuda rig.

Never forget, not all people sailing regular boats are idiots, so give them a little credit that they have good reasons, why they don't chose this kind of boat. Better learn first, what tradeoffs you're getting into with these exotic boats.

I am also curious if you have sailed a well-rigged junk. I prefer the junk for cruising as they are so much and safer, easier, less work, and can reef easy from the cockpit, they have so many advantages over a Bermudan rig for cruising, I can complete a reef in 5 seconds re-trim, and keep sailing, it is far easier than furling the headsail. Though you need to be a good sailor to understand them. I have owned 3 Bermudan rigged yachts beforehand.

[double u]

...a source of constant wonderment to me, why the NOVICE wants to go for "solutions" that "re-invent" the wheel...

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by double u

...a source of constant wonderment to me, why the NOVICE wants to go for "solutions" that "re-invent" the wheel...

This statement defies logic. Your assertation that being a novice sailor also make one incapable rational investigation into practical solutions to challenges posed in sailing single handed, constitutes hubris.
Your metaphor, which has it's roots in 1970s advertising, is so shallow it evaporates when exposed to light. In truth sailing like aviation has had countless iterations through the ages, contributed to both advancement in engineering and the materials available. Only in some sort of Orwellian Communist utopia do we find every last person agreeing that one design fits all, and that all others are relegated to the dustbin of square wheels.
Not only is your assertation nonsense, it seems to fall in the category of troll, as it adds nothing to the inquiry posted and is clearly an ad hominem insult to an admitted novice.
Shame on you.