Freestanding mast opinions wanted

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by wmcunninghamii

is this a Mull? Must be if an 87? What is the hull#?

Glad you found your boat, make sure to bookmark Freedom Yachts board.

Yes it is a Mull, hull#26 and in outstanding shape. The crane crew broke my anemometer when stepping my mast, so I will replace that with a newer wireless setup in the spring. I recently picked up a new Whale manual bilge, and will install new propane lines and a Worthington propane tank as well, but other than that everything is in ship shape.
I am a member of the Freedom Yacht forum and would not feel as confidant as I do about sailing and maintaining "Appeal To Heaven" without the help I have received there. I stepped the mast and commissioned her myself, and could not have done that without them.
After idling at the dock for a few minutes after launch I proceeded to sail her on a ten hour voyage home , which had me searching for my mooring with my headlamp at 10pm in a bay full of rocks and shoals. It was meant to be.

[Manateeman]

TPI knew how to build a really strong vessel. The sail boats they built for the Navy Annapolis school were ballistic. The sea trial was in a full gale.
The mast testing story would take pages to tell. They were built so strong testing to failure was impossible in the shop. I never liked balsa or any cored hull. The early cat ketch boats were strong and good sailing boats. If you look at the history of American Sail Fishing boats, you’ll see why men working in small boats offshore liked the rig. My grandfather’s boat had four unstated masts. Tall for summer, short for winter. Removable stone ballast. Trusted her more than a lot of modern designs I built. Off No Mans Land, the Atlantic in winter is as nasty as it gets and Fore and Aft free standing rig was designed to take it.
I’ve got a lot of strings holding up the sticks. Lots of things to fail. Every boat design is a compromise and everything in it as well.
I’d feel safe taking one of the early TPI cat ketch boats off soundings. Maybe not to the arctic, but I’d build that design in aluminum any day.
Lot of noise in the posts from people who have never built anything. TPI built good boats and low cost, boats. Nothing wrong with free standing spars nor cat ketch boats. Just my professional opinion.
Captain Mark

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Clemson

Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of this tread and I am happy to say the first season on my 1987 Freedom 28 has been a real joy and I have 20 more days until she is hauled to the hard. When I first posted for opinions I would have never believed that I would have found the kind of sailboat I was inquiring about so fast, and right in my backyard for a price I could afford.

Yes the Mull designed Freedoms are pretty nice boats. That 28 is sweet.

I think all the TPI boats are pretty well constructed although I believe I once saw some serious hull delam on one foam core 36' race boat from them (it was fixed). I think it can happen to any cored boat, but it is not common or usually serious.

However the problems I see with wishbone boom free standing masts, such as most Freedoms, are performance issues, mostly lack of windward ability, and I just don't like the idea of that big mass of folded sailcoth hanging up there in the wishbone when the sails are down; it's too much windage too high and too hard to access for crew on deck. In my opinion.

But I know that lots of owners and sailors love them. A close relative lived aboard and cruised a Freedom 40 Ketch for over a decade and they were strong advocates. I've sailed with them and mostly agree with them, but still have the reservations I just mentioned.

Today I spoke with Randy Repass about his free standing wishbone boom ketch (not a Freedom). He arrived here today spoke of a good trip although his steering failed and he had to complete the passage using auto pilot.

So, boats are boats.

[Manateeman]

Bruce King had a wishbone ketch as his personal yacht.
Not free standing spars.
I don’t like wishbone booms but only because they can’t support a manatee crew as a hammock. That didn’t stop my crew.
They’d hide in the folds and jump out and scare kids straight out of their top sliders on Halloween.
I told them that was too mean but they replied “sailing is a athletic activity or a sedentary..no activity sport..or both.”
You really don’t want to anchor near us.
Mark

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Bruce King had a wishbone ketch as his personal yacht.
Not free standing spars.
I don’t like wishbone booms but only because they can’t support a manatee crew as a hammock. That didn’t stop my crew.
They’d hide in the folds and jump out and scare kids straight out of their top sliders on Halloween.
I told them that was too mean but they replied “sailing is a athletic activity or a sedentary..no activity sport..or both.”
You really don’t want to anchor near us.
Mark

Mark, are you going to throw that out every time I post in any thread you are also in? It is coming close to violating the forum rules.

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by wingssail

However the problems I see with wishbone boom free standing masts, such as most Freedoms, are performance issues, mostly lack of windward ability, and I just don't like the idea of that big mass of folded sailcoth hanging up there in the wishbone when the sails are down; it's too much windage too high and too hard to access for crew on deck. In my opinion.

The traditional boom is what put the 28 Mull on top of my list. I was keenly aware that my first sailboat would come with a steep learning curve and I would need to utilize every resource available, internet, books, and in the flesh sailors, with vast the majority, almost exclusively, focused on the traditional sloop rigged main.
I do like the quasi cat main sail on the Mull Freedom as it is quite a bit bigger and further forward than those on a typical 28. I have sailed without raising my jib and she tacks just fine without excessive weather helm.

[Triplereefed]

Originally Posted by gulfcoastsailor

Wow six pages of comments already. I am surprised. I’ll keep it short. Well-maintained dry hauled freedom is the boat for you. Those that have not done their homework are unaware of the many benefits of ownership. I can take a legal pad right now and point out the benefits of a freedom versus many other boats in the same price range. I’m in my seventh year of ownership. The only thing I would trade it for is a freedom 45. But my cookie jar is not that big. PM me if you would like a highly detailed list of reasons otherwise good luck.

Hi gulfcoastsailor, I'm currently looking at a Freedom 45 to purchase for a circumnavigation. I know plenty about stayed rigged yachts as I have been a pro skipper for 25 years and have already done 2 circumnavigation...on a 60' and a 70'. But I know nothing about unstayed masts and only some about carbon fibre having worked on Open 60's. I'm very interested in receiving your detailed list. Many thanks in advance.

[Triplereefed]

Hi Eric, I hope the circumnavigation went well, or perhaps you are still doing it? I've read some of your articles on freestanding masts and I'm really happy to have found you on this forum. I'm considering a Freedom 45cc, I'm not sure if you had any involvement in the design and build of this model? However, I'm more interested in the durability and serviceability of the carbon mast. I plan to do another circumnavigation and just have some concerns about the mast strength and if it does fail how I would go about repairing and or replacing it? Not easy when all the world's yards are geared up for rigged masts. I've repaired a few aluminium and steel masts before but not CF. I've worked on CF racing boats and know enough that small and temporary repairs can be done but usually advanced laminating skills are required and an oven for larger and lasting repairs. Do you think my concerns are unfounded? TIA for any reply.

[ewsponberg]

Originally Posted by Triplereefed

Hi Eric, I hope the circumnavigation went well, or perhaps you are still doing it? I've read some of your articles on freestanding masts and I'm really happy to have found you on this forum. I'm considering a Freedom 45cc, I'm not sure if you had any involvement in the design and build of this model? However, I'm more interested in the durability and serviceability of the carbon mast. I plan to do another circumnavigation and just have some concerns about the mast strength and if it does fail how I would go about repairing and or replacing it? Not easy when all the world's yards are geared up for rigged masts. I've repaired a few aluminium and steel masts before but not CF. I've worked on CF racing boats and know enough that small and temporary repairs can be done but usually advanced laminating skills are required and an oven for larger and lasting repairs. Do you think my concerns are unfounded? TIA for any reply.

Hi Triplereefed, Yes, we finished our circumnavigation in June last year, 31,709 miles over 6.5 years. We are now berthed in Brunswick Landing Marina in Brunswick, GA, and Corroboree is up for sale. Link: https://www.dunbaryachts.com/boats-f...orgia-9286531/.

You should have little concern for the carbon fiber masts, they last a really long time. In all my years, I have never heard of a properly built carbon fiber free-standing mast failing due to age or overuse. I have seen failures due to poor addition of attachments, or repairs, or in one case, probably a "Monday morning" mast that did not get enough original laminate. Otherwise, carbon fiber is an ideal material for free-standing masts.

The TPI built masts on Freedom Yachts do have an inherent surface cracking problem which I have written about before. This is mostly a cosmetic problem, but it can degenerate to something serious if allowed to go too far. I attach a PDF document that describes the problem in detail and how to repair it. This can be found elsewhere on the internet and on the Freedom Owners website, www.freedomyachts.org.

Should you be so unlucky to have the mast fail, you might be able to splice it back together. Save all the broken parts. I have written numerous repair specs over the years on how to do that. If you need a replacement mast, they can be built, and I recommend that you contact Composite Engineering in Westport, MA, to arrange same. Composite Engineering used to build carbon fiber free standing masts in house, but recently they gave their tooling and technology over to another company, Moore Brothers in Bristol, RI. They still make the masts for the WylieCats. Here are some links:

Composite Engineering: https://composite-eng.com/

Moore Brothers: https://www.moorebro.co/

WylieCat: Wyliecat Performance Yachts: Homepage

I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Eric

[Clemson]

Though extremely rare, it has happened. This thread follows one sailors recent experience, including some great documentation of the repair.

https://www.freedomyachts.org/viewto...p=55090#p55090

If you do become a Freedom sailor, you will certainly want to join the owners forum.

[ewsponberg]

Originally Posted by Clemson

Though extremely rare, it has happened. This thread follows one sailors recent experience, including some great documentation of the repair.

https://www.freedomyachts.org/viewto...p=55090#p55090

If you do become a Freedom sailor, you will certainly want to join the owners forum.

I corresponded with the owner of this boat after the mast broke, and then with the new owner after he bought the boat with the mast still broken. The new owner sent me some photographs of the mast at the break, from which it appeared to me that the mast was exceedingly thin walled--this is the "Monday Morning" mast that I mentioned in my previous post. The wall thickness appeared to be about 1/8" thick when it should have been 1/4" to 5/16" thick. There is just not enough laminate there. This is a case of bad luck. As I said, a properly designed and built carbon fiber mast should last a long, long time.

I hope that helps. Cheers,

Eric