Freestanding mast opinions wanted

[Free2Sail]

Hello Clemson,
We have owned a Freedom 40/40* for 6 years now and couldn't be happier with her. It's one of Freedom's newest/last models (a 1997), a fractional sloop rig with a CF mast and a self-tacking jib. She is a fast, stiff, well made boat that's perfect for short-handed sailing. It sails very well upwind and blows most boats away downwind. We often short-tack upwind (e.g. in the narrow part of Boston Harbor) instead of motoring because tacking is so easy.

Before buying the 40/40, we sailed a Hunter 39, as well as other conventionally rigged OPBs and charter boats. Gamayun has already commented on the many pros of a Freedom. I would not wish to go back to a stayed rig and worrying about which of the many components of the rig need to be inspected and maintained to prevent rig failure.

I have no experience with wishbone booms or cat ketches, so I can't comment on the pro and cons of these vs. the more conventionally sloop-rigged Freedoms.

Our boat has a standard aluminum boom for the main, and the camber (curved) boomlet for the jib, which flips on tacks to give the jib the correct shape. It works well for sailing dead downwind with the main and jib winged out. It's a main-driven boat, and the main is huge with a big roach, as you don't have a backstay in the way. The main is on a sail track and drops like a stone. The jib needs a little help pulling down the head of the sail. It's apparently small enough to use as a storm sail while dropping the main in heavy weather. You can e.g. pick up moorings with just the jib, it's that easily manageable. We reef the main quite late, into the 20s, because of the wind-spilling mast. We go to 2nd reef with winds >25 kts.

You didn't ask specifically about this, but the late-model Freedoms are fairly low maintenance, having very little teak outside to maintain (just the swim platform on our boat and the companionway strips). The woodwork inside is hand-built, quite nice and gives that old timey feeling, quite unlike the antiseptic Ikea look of French and German mass production boats today. Another nice touch is having pretty conventional stairs (4 steps) instead of a ladder, so you don't have to turn around to go down into the cabin - great for dogs, too. Just a lot of well thought-out touches which you can read about online.

The only "cons" in my view is not having rigging wires to hold on to going to the bow, but you can rig up a spare halyard attached loosely to both toe rails to emulate "standing" rigging. Or install additional granny bars near the mast. Our fully-battened, multi-ply main is also very heavy, but that's particular to our boat. It's not the best in very light (<5kn) winds, being a 12T boat, but it doesn't seem to be worse than other boats of that class. With winds in the 17+ kt range it will do 8-9kts, even double digits occasionally.

If you were thinking of single-handing a lot, I'd consider Freedom 40/40's smaller sister, Freedom 35, another, scaled-down, Pedrick design. I haven't sailed it, but apparently it's very similar, but easier to manage for a single-hander.

*Not to be confused with the much older Freedom 40

[Free2Sail]

Originally Posted by daysailj

One thing that may not be clear to all in the discussion above is that the original Freedom 40/40 Cat/ketch, designed by Gary Hoyt, differs significantly from the 90’s era Freedom 40 sloop rigged boats, designed by Gary Mull and later, Dennis Pedrick. I sailed a ‘95 F40 for 13 years, with offshore trips to the Caribbean and Bahamas. I had the wing keel version, which was great in the Bahamas and Keys with only 5’ 6” draft.
.

I believe only the 1990s Dave Pedrick design is called Freedom 40/40 (because it's 40'5" long), made from about 1995 to 2001 or so, the older models were called Freedom 40.

[JimJohnston]

Hi Clemson. While Nonsuches have been mentioned a few times, there hasn't been a lot of comment. Allow me to say a few words as an owner of a Nonsuch 30 and previously owner of a Caliber 40, a C&C 27 and a Redline 25. First off, it's the easiest boat of all to sail except in a few situations: 1. jibing in strong winds is scary and risky on account of the huge mainsail (unreefed) so those occasions are reduced to a 'chicken jibe', easily managed as there is no jib to contend with; 2. heaving to is not possible because there is no jib although pinching slows the boat; 3. raising the main is a big job, again because of size and height of the mast (about 48 ft above deck) which is however simplified with an electric hand-held or deck mounted winch.
OTOH, tacking is a breeze - put the helm over and that's it until you come onto the new course. No strings to pull. She is slow doing that but otherwise sails well to windward. Typically I will sail through about 105 degrees tack-to-tack. My caliber 40 wasn't much better and the C&C 27 might have done it within 100 degrees (but that might have been me). In a 15 kt breeze she will easily achieve 6.5 to 7 kts on a close or beam reach. Downwind 8 kts is easy to sustain.
What struck us the most when we looked at our first NS30 after sailing the Caliber40 was what appeared to be nearly equivalent interior volume, with a 12 ft beam. The mast stepped forward allows for more unbroken cabin space.
Some Nonsuches have sailed to distant shores but by and large they are not considered suited for offshore sailing - the broad beam and slightly flat bottom don't suit a seaway.
About 900 were built in different sizes from 22 to 36 ft with the 30 being the most popular. Newer ones were equipped with carbon fibre spars. the 30 'Ultra' has a cabin layout that follows a traditional pattern with a pullman berth forward.
They are fairly popular in the US North East and on the Great lakes, so I suspect there is one for sale near you. There are listings in the Nonsuch association web site, Nonsuch.org if you are curious.
Finally, if you have questions don't hesitate to write me. Cheers

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Oceanconcepts

Not really. Bendy unstayed masts, whether on dinghies or cruising boats, all work about the same way. The mast bends mostly along the axis of the sail, and the more it bends the flatter the sail becomes and the less heeling power it develops. A gust will automatically "depower" the rig. It's about altering sail shape, not angle.



For that matter, bendy stayed rigs do exactly the same thing, they just require you to adjust strings in order to accomplish it, rather than doing it automatically.

Ditto on providing such a brilliant response. I had no idea this is how it worked; I just know that it does.

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by ms.lau

All I'd like to ask is why? I'm serious, it's an odd parameter for a novice to set themselves. Nothing wrong with it that I know of, it's just unusual and I'd like to hear the story behind the question.

Where to start? Though I am an admitted sailing novice, I do have some working knowledge due to living on the coast for 52 years and knowing sailors. I think perhaps that being a lifelong reader of nautical themed nonfiction has created a fertile mind for the deep investigation I undertook once I committed myself to making my dream come true.
I am better than most at both researching and retaining pertinent information. This process continues to cover how to sail and what I want to be sailing on. Since single handed sailing requires extra consideration for both the aforementioned points of study, I discovered the Freedom and other related designs. I thought this apropos because I have a soft spot for the 19th century Cat boats.
I posted my question after a couple months of reading all I could find on these boats and have been quite happy with the responses thus far, which have indeed highlighted considerations, pros, and cons.

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by Free2Sail

Hello Clemson,
We have owned a Freedom 40/40* for 6 years now and couldn't be happier with her. It's one of Freedom's newest/last models (a 1997), a fractional sloop rig with a CF mast and a self-tacking jib. She is a fast, stiff, well made boat that's perfect for short-handed sailing. It sails very well upwind and blows most boats away downwind. We often short-tack upwind (e.g. in the narrow part of Boston Harbor) instead of motoring because tacking is so easy.

Before buying the 40/40, we sailed a Hunter 39, as well as other conventionally rigged OPBs and charter boats. Gamayun has already commented on the many pros of a Freedom. I would not wish to go back to a stayed rig and worrying about which of the many components of the rig need to be inspected and maintained to prevent rig failure.

I have no experience with wishbone booms or cat ketches, so I can't comment on the pro and cons of these vs. the more conventionally sloop-rigged Freedoms.

Our boat has a standard aluminum boom for the main, and the camber (curved) boomlet for the jib, which flips on tacks to give the jib the correct shape. It works well for sailing dead downwind with the main and jib winged out. It's a main-driven boat, and the main is huge with a big roach, as you don't have a backstay in the way. The main is on a sail track and drops like a stone. The jib needs a little help pulling down the head of the sail. It's apparently small enough to use as a storm sail while dropping the main in heavy weather. You can e.g. pick up moorings with just the jib, it's that easily manageable. We reef the main quite late, into the 20s, because of the wind-spilling mast. We go to 2nd reef with winds >25 kts.

You didn't ask specifically about this, but the late-model Freedoms are fairly low maintenance, having very little teak outside to maintain (just the swim platform on our boat and the companionway strips). The woodwork inside is hand-built, quite nice and gives that old timey feeling, quite unlike the antiseptic Ikea look of French and German mass production boats today. Another nice touch is having pretty conventional stairs (4 steps) instead of a ladder, so you don't have to turn around to go down into the cabin - great for dogs, too. Just a lot of well thought-out touches which you can read about online.

The only "cons" in my view is not having rigging wires to hold on to going to the bow, but you can rig up a spare halyard attached loosely to both toe rails to emulate "standing" rigging. Or install additional granny bars near the mast. Our fully-battened, multi-ply main is also very heavy, but that's particular to our boat. It's not the best in very light (<5kn) winds, being a 12T boat, but it doesn't seem to be worse than other boats of that class. With winds in the 17+ kt range it will do 8-9kts, even double digits occasionally.

If you were thinking of single-handing a lot, I'd consider Freedom 40/40's smaller sister, Freedom 35, another, scaled-down, Pedrick design. I haven't sailed it, but apparently it's very similar, but easier to manage for a single-hander.

*Not to be confused with the much older Freedom 40

Thank you so very much for taking the time to write a thorough and thoughtful account of your experience with the Freedom 40/40. Your reply, as well as an other which made reference to the later sloop designs, has given me lots to chew on. The Freedom 35 you mentioned may be the one which ticks all the boxes.

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by JimJohnston

Some Nonsuches have sailed to distant shores but by and large they are not considered suited for offshore sailing - the broad beam and slightly flat bottom don't suit a seaway.

First I should say that I have had a picture of a Nonesuch 30 Ultra as my desktop wallpaper for a month now. I am in love with it's lines, as I am a huge Cat boat fan, historically speaking. But with that said, I have made sure from the start of my journey not let my eye have any part of the decision making process, instead I must be purely practical, which is a real challenge for me at times.
I remember coming across someone saying that they thought the cockpit was not suited for water sailing">blue water sailing, but with my limited understanding of how that could be I have been looking for more insights on it as an offshore sailing vessel. Though you bring up a completely different concern, it is both invaluable and not what I necessarily wanted to hear.
In truth I may never make that offshore journey, but it is the achievement I have my sights on, sailing to Ireland via Newfoundland.
Thanks for contributing to this post. There is nothing I love more these days than learning about sailing and that boats that I have grown found of.

[ewsponberg]

Hi Clemson,

Welcome to the forum. I see I have been preceded by my articles on free-standing rigs. I would recommend that you include in your searches the Herreshoff and Sparhawk cat ketches built by Cat Ketch Yachts Inc. Of the Herreshoffs there were the 27, 28, 31, 33, 38, and 45. The earliest ones had wood spars, but I was hired to convert the entire line to carbon fiber spars. All of these had half-wishbone booms. Personally, I have sailed on some 31s a number of times and they are very comfortable boats and very easy to sail. The 33s are very similar. There were maybe 20-25 H-38s built, but only 2 H-45s built.

Of the Sparhawks, very much rarer, a 36' design and another at 42', more carbon in the masts, and they had conventional booms. Both excellent sailers. There were half a dozen or so S-36s built in Southern California, but the designer, Richard Black, was unhappy with the construction. I put him in touch with Cat Ketch Yachts, and they built the remaining models.

Cat Ketch Yachts used to be located in Honduras with shipping into Miami. When an investor pulled out, they shifted production to Port Arthur, TX, for a few years. Eventually, however, they had to close their doors.

Anyway, you may find a number of the 31s, 33, and 38s show up for sale, and I recommend you take a look at them. All the Herreshoff and Sparhawk cat ketches from Cat Ketch Yachts were built over male plugs using Airex foa core. Their hulls are particularly sound. This was more labor intensive than using female molds, but the hulls are of superior quality.

In the meantime, if you have any specific questions, let me know and I'll try to answer them.

Just so that you know, I am currently in the middle of a circumnavigation, presently moored in Darwin, NT, Australia, waiting out cyclone season and for the world to heal itself from the Covid pandemic. Covid has wreaked havoc in the cruising community by keeping international boarders closed. There are many hundreds of sailboats strewn across the oceans waiting for easier clearing in/out procedures so that we can get back to voyaging. Our boat is Corroboree, my own design that I bought back from my original client. It is a free-standing sloop, wood epoxy construction, very similar to the Freedom 36/38 (Gary Mull design) which came out at about the same time (1986/87).

Good luck on your searches. Let me know if I can be of further help.

Cheers,

Eric

[gulfcoastsailor]

Wow six pages of comments already. I am surprised. I’ll keep it short. Well-maintained dry hauled freedom is the boat for you. Those that have not done their homework are unaware of the many benefits of ownership. I can take a legal pad right now and point out the benefits of a freedom versus many other boats in the same price range. I’m in my seventh year of ownership. The only thing I would trade it for is a freedom 45. But my cookie jar is not that big. PM me if you would like a highly detailed list of reasons otherwise good luck.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Clemson

First I should say that I have had a picture of a Nonesuch 30 Ultra as my desktop wallpaper for a month now. I am in love with it's lines, as I am a huge Cat boat fan, historically speaking. But with that said, I have made sure from the start of my journey not let my eye have any part of the decision making process, instead I must be purely practical, which is a real challenge for me at times.
I remember coming across someone saying that they thought the cockpit was not suited for blue water sailing, but with my limited understanding of how that could be I have been looking for more insights on it as an offshore sailing vessel. Though you bring up a completely different concern, it is both invaluable and not what I necessarily wanted to hear.
In truth I may never make that offshore journey, but it is the achievement I have my sights on, sailing to Ireland via Newfoundland.
Thanks for contributing to this post. There is nothing I love more these days than learning about sailing and that boats that I have grown found of.

I'm sorry Clemson, You're a dreamer. Nothing you say about pictures on your computer wallpaper or what "someone was saying" indicates any knowlege or experience. The "lines" you love are an illusion. Why? Why do you love them? You don't know, you just do. Receipe for disaster and disillusionment.

So if you love nothing more than learning about sailing, start doing some sailing. I don't mean lessons but if you've got a bit of excess money, why not, the teacher needs it.

Get on boats. Lots of boats, lots of them. Sail Sail Sail. Get on a racing crew. (One year of that and you won't be a dreamer asking dumb questions).

Start learning the realities of boats and sailing. You need that.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm sorry Clemson, You're a dreamer. Nothing you say about pictures on your computer wallpaper or what "someone was saying" indicates any knowlege or experience. The "lines" you love are an illusion. Why? Why do you love them? You don't know, you just do. Receipe for disaster and disillusionment.

Wingsail, don't you think that's a little harsh. Liking the look of a boat or being a dreamer isn't such a bad thing. It can happen to everyone and might motivate one to realise the dream. His preferences aren't totally stupid, they just make realising the dream a little harder. Some people like Canoe sterns, some love Bristol Channel Cutters, some like the lines of 80ies designs (add me to this group), so wanting a cat-rigged boat isn't so bad in comparison.

[gamayun]

I had sailed on a handful of boats (about 5 on Chesapeake Bay and 2 in the San Francisco Bay region) and knew very little except for doing the research and due diligence before choosing my F38. After nearly a decade, I'm still enamored with her. Don't recall if this has been mentioned, but short tacking without breaking a sweat while singlehanding is another benefit.

From the input so far, Clemson has got this, too.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Wingsail, don't you think that's a little harsh. Liking the look of a boat or being a dreamer isn't such a bad thing. It can happen to everyone and might motivate one to realise the dream. His preferences aren't totally stupid, they just make realising the dream a little harder. Some people like Canoe sterns, some love Bristol Channel Cutters, some like the lines of 80ies designs (add me to this group), so wanting a cat-rigged boat isn't so bad in comparison.

Yes, it was harsh. I am sorry to have come across that harshly. Honestly, I was trying to wake the OP to some reality in hopes that he would stop and wonder if he needs to take a step back.

There is nothing wrong with his dream or choice of which boat to dream of but, gamayan and other happy owners of Freedom boats not withstanding, he has better chance of avoiding regrets if he learns a bit more by getting some solid boating experience before jumping in.

I actually just wish him the best.

[Clemson]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yes, it was harsh. I am sorry to have come across that harshly. Honestly, I was trying to wake the OP to some reality in hopes that he would stop and wonder if he needs to take a step back.

There is nothing wrong with his dream or choice of which boat to dream of but, gamayan and other happy owners of Freedom boats not withstanding, he has better chance of avoiding regrets if he learns a bit more by getting some solid boating experience before jumping in.

I actually just wish him the best.

If your intention was actually to "wake me up" , and "wish me the best", rather than just boosting your own ego by attempting to tear down mine, you have failed.
I have turned many dreams into realities, dreams that others said were impossible. I do agree there are many dreamers out there that lack the perseverance and or skills to bring their dreams to fruition, but even they do not disserve to be callously degraded, in public or private.
You assume I do not have solid boating experience, but I have a mooring two miles from my home. I grew up on the water, on an island in the summer, and the mainland coast during the off season. I have had friends with sailboats and crewed aboard a Hinckley 52 until it's owner passed away.
I loved the lines of that boat, to which you would say, " The "lines" you love are an illusion. Why? Why do you love them? You don't know, you just do. Recipe for disaster and disillusionment." Which make no sense whatsoever, because I never said I was going to get a boat because I like the way it looked, in fact what I said was just the opposite. Somehow you thought it was ok to assume I am incapable of separating aesthetic appreciation from practical reality. By the way the owner of the Hinckley bought it purely because he liked the way it looked, and had zero sailing experience before he bought it. So that route seems to work for some.
There is no other way to interpret your input to my post other than crass, rude, and discouraging.
" (One year of that and you won't be a dreamer asking dumb questions).

Start learning the realities of boats and sailing. You need that."

I hope to always be a dreamer, and I have asked no dumb questions.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Clemson

If your intention was actually to "wake me up" , and "wish me the best", rather than just boosting your own ego by attempting to tear down mine, you have failed.

Glad to hear that the rudeness did not affect you intentions.

Originally Posted by Clemson

...

I hope to always be a dreamer, and I have asked no dumb questions.

You have not asked dumb questions, and while I think there are no dumb questions, there are certainly dumb answers. CF has a wealth of knowledge, the problem is finding the wheat from the chaff.

I have been using websites like CF since last century and only on CF have I had to use the ignore button. Not sure why that is, but it is, what it is.

We have given quite a bit of time and consideration to having a trawler with a junk rig, which would have free standing mast(s). After years of studying junk rigs and a variety of boats, sail boats and trawlers, almost certainly, we have ruled out using a junk rig on a trawler for what we want to do. That last part is key, "what we want to do." I still like junk rigged boats. The Freedom and Cat boats are very interesting designs that got my attention years ago.

If we had not invested the time in studying the issues, thinking about WHAT we wanted to do, traveled to see countries and boat builders, reading books, and following discussions on the Internet, we would not have the knowledge we now possess. If we manage to pull of the Boat Dream, we will have one chance to do it right. There will be no second chance. Digging into the details now, while we wait for our exit time, is critical.

Later,
Dan