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Old 09-02-2020, 21:39   #1
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Cruise capable, smaller boats?

I've been going through some online listings just to see whats out there for boats. Maybe what I'm looking for just doesn't exist.


What I'm looking for is a boat like a Hunter, Classic, or O'Day, 70's-80's vintage, with:
- beam width between 8' and 8'6"
- diesel inboard
- wheel steer (or the ability to convert to)
- Interior accommodating several days to a couple weeks of time onboard
--- Preferably a gimbal-mounted range, but that may not be too hard to upgrade to (looks like most gimbals are 1 axis - roll, not pitch, so maybe an upgrade to dual axis would be best - smaller boats will pitch more anyway)

- 6' or more headroom below deck

- Length - as big as possible (limiting dimension appears to be the beam width)
- 4' draft or less ideally



The Classic 26 is 8'4", for example, but uses an outboard motor.



Boats like West Wight Potters and MacGregors are too much like glorified bathtubs inside and too small. Same goes for Hunters etc under 25' - too small. Any of them newer than 90's vintage all seem like the same kind of bathtub-like construction inside.


Any other ideas from the group to look in to? I suppose if what I was looking for was more common I would have come across more by now. Just trying to get some ideas...
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Old 09-02-2020, 23:33   #2
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

I have a boat that checks all those boxes with the exception of wheel steering and a draft at just over 4'. A couple passing comments:

-with such a small cockpit, being able to swing the tiller arm up and out of the way when at anchor (90% of the time) is great. However, the Orion 27 is one example of a wheel steered small boat. I know there are others.

-we have an gimballed oven with two burner stove. It is not dual axis, tho it's inability to respond to heavy pitching has never been an issue for us. When it's that rough on a passage, we either aren't looking to cook or will dig into our stash of freeze-dried pouches and lock our kettle into place to heat water up for them.

-as your limiting factor is a beam under 8'6", it appears you're looking to trailer. We have a trailer for our V27, though we've yet to use it. The logistics of hauling around a 9000lb boat with a 42' mast and all the rigging have made it so far highly impractical in the 10 years i've owned it, despite the intention to at some unforeseeable point in the future haul it up to MN. YMMV
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Old 10-02-2020, 03:30   #3
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Not sure why you'd want wheel steering on a small boat, but anyway, here is a list of 72 good small offshore cruise capable boats.

And some good advise for those new to boating/sailing

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html
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Old 10-02-2020, 08:26   #4
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Another thought - since this forum covers people around the world...



I am in the continental US. So that is the market I am looking in to.


Sailing locations:
- Hence my username - great lakes = fresh water. However, there is a smaller lake I have a place on that may see more water time than anywhere else.

- I have family in the Caribbean and would entertain the idea of departing somewhere from the gulf coast to east coast to get there.

- I have family in California also that have yachts on the pacific. I've thought about sailing out there - and maybe way down the road - cross over to Hawaii. Thats a lot further down on the list than the Caribbean though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by laika View Post
I have a boat that checks all those boxes with the exception of wheel steering and a draft at just over 4'. A couple passing comments:

-with such a small cockpit, being able to swing the tiller arm up and out of the way when at anchor (90% of the time) is great.

That is a good point. I never really thought about that aspect. The reason for the wheel steer is two fold -

1. That is what I've been sailing
2. I want to be facing forward more in the middle and not off on a bench on the side. I've spent a lot of time in tiller motor skiffs and I was really put off by trying to cover a lot of miles in them. My back was the first to give up on those trips. So I put a seat on the boat with a back. Then my arm holding the tiller motor was the second to give up. The only solution for that was remoting the controls. Which I did. There may be a lot of difference between a tiller on a sailboat and a tiller handle with throttle on an outboard motor, but I'd rather just keep it wheel and be one with it. I'm looking at the ergonomics over long periods of time. I realize there are methods to lash a tiller in place for hands-free positioning, but the same really can be done for a wheel also - just a bit more complex to make adjustments. That is to say autopilot isn't used or is inoperable...


Quote:
Originally Posted by laika View Post
-we have an gimballed oven with two burner stove. It is not dual axis, tho it's inability to respond to heavy pitching has never been an issue for us. When it's that rough on a passage, we either aren't looking to cook or will dig into our stash of freeze-dried pouches and lock our kettle into place to heat water up for them.

Interesting comment. Thanks. I haven't done too much research on ovens/ranges but I have seen single-burner designs that are dual axis with a bracket that mounts to the side of a bulkhead, for example, where the burner has a 1lb propane bottle hanging underneath it. The 2+ burner stove tops I've seen thus far (stove tops alone or range on top of an oven) all appear to be single-axis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by laika View Post
-as your limiting factor is a beam under 8'6", it appears you're looking to trailer.

That is correct. It has to be trailerable. I started another thread recently about a Hunter 27. Its a bit over 9' on the beam. It isn't out of the question, but I am looking at what else is out there to form ideas and opinions that will point in the rest of the direction.


If money wasn't an object then one of the places I want to sail would get its own sailboat - which is where all our boats are now. That may be a possibility in the future, but for the foreseeable future its out of the question. What ever boat I end up with might become that boat that stays there if I am in a position to upgrade at a later point in life. Until then... on to wheels and down the road it will go.



A trailer is another point of consideration. I haven't dug in to that one too much. However, there are a lot of options down that road. There aren't any limitations there that even closely stack up to what happens with wider boats. It would be nice to have a 10-12ft beam - but trying to pull that around the US and Canada would be quite a challenge, irritation in regulation, and expensive in permitting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Not sure why you'd want wheel steering on a small boat, but anyway, here is a list of 72 good small offshore cruise capable boats.

See above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
And some good advise for those new to boating/sailing

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html

Thanks for the list. I will pick through that. It looks like, just off the bat, there are several boats in the beam width requirement.
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Old 10-02-2020, 08:51   #5
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Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor View Post
I've been going through some online listings just to see whats out there for boats. Maybe what I'm looking for just doesn't exist.


What I'm looking for is a boat like a Hunter, Classic, or O'Day, 70's-80's vintage, with:
- beam width between 8' and 8'6"
- diesel inboard
- wheel steer (or the ability to convert to)
- Interior accommodating several days to a couple weeks of time onboard
--- Preferably a gimbal-mounted range, but that may not be too hard to upgrade to (looks like most gimbals are 1 axis - roll, not pitch, so maybe an upgrade to dual axis would be best - smaller boats will pitch more anyway)

- 6' or more headroom below deck

- Length - as big as possible (limiting dimension appears to be the beam width)
- 4' draft or less ideally



The Classic 26 is 8'4", for example, but uses an outboard motor.



Boats like West Wight Potters and MacGregors are too much like glorified bathtubs inside and too small. Same goes for Hunters etc under 25' - too small. Any of them newer than 90's vintage all seem like the same kind of bathtub-like construction inside.


Any other ideas from the group to look in to? I suppose if what I was looking for was more common I would have come across more by now. Just trying to get some ideas...


I’m wondering why you want the following requirements:

A. 8-8.5’ beam
B. Wheel steering
C. Inboard engine


Boats don’t pitch that much compared to roll, that’s why stoves are only gimbaled for roll. 2 degrees of freedom would seem to me excessively complex and might also lead to more sloshing of pots. Not really sure. W degrees of freedom would required more space for the same stove when such space is already at a premium.
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Old 10-02-2020, 10:04   #6
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor View Post
What I'm looking for is a boat ...with:
- beam width between 8' and 8'6"
- diesel inboard
- wheel steer (or the ability to convert to)
- Interior accommodating several days to a couple weeks of time onboard
--- Preferably a gimbal-mounted range, but that may not be too hard to upgrade to (looks like most gimbals are 1 axis - roll, not pitch, so maybe an upgrade to dual axis would be best - smaller boats will pitch more anyway)

- 6' or more headroom below deck

- Length - as big as possible (limiting dimension appears to be the beam width)
- 4' draft or less ideally
One thing you haven't listed is cost... I have the impression that you have a fairly tight budget? What is your budget btw?

(If budget is unlimited, I'd say get a Seaward 26RK ... it seems to tick most of your boxes)

But assuming that you do have budgetary limits... I think you will have a hard time meeting all or most of them.

Inboard diesels are nice... til they need fixing/replacing. There's more bang for the buck, and easier repairs/replacement with an outboard.

I'm not a fan of wheel steering in anything under about 28 to 30'... I personally like the feel of the tiller in hand, and a wheel just eats up so much cockpit space.

In a smaller boat, you're much less likely to be making hot meals while in heavy seas, so a built-in fully-gimballed stove shouldn't be a dealbreaker. Anyway one can always retrofit a small gimballed stove later, like a gimballed hiker-size unit.

I think that 25' or 26' is probably the practical upper limit for towability, and even at that you'd want something with reduced weight (eg water ballasted) and retractable centerboard. A fixed-keel boat is scary to tow, and hard to launch at most ramps.

Quote:
Boats like West Wight Potters and MacGregors are too much like glorified bathtubs inside and too small. Same goes for Hunters etc under 25' - too small. Any of them newer than 90's vintage all seem like the same kind of bathtub-like construction inside.
Hey, them's fighting words!
Our boat is 19'. Definitely small, but not as bathtubby as a WWP inside. A fixed head, and a folding table on the keel trunk, but everything else (water, basin, butane stove) is loose and stowed til needed, which leaves more space in the cabin for sitting and sleeping.

And we have friends enjoying their McGregors (one a 26D, one a 26M) and doing some towing and cruising..

We've kept our boat on Lake Ontario for going on 14 years now. There's very few days where we were forced off the water because of heavy weather. She's a dream to tow, and we go to a different spot just about every year, including several nice cottage lakes.

In your shoes (which I almost am), I would ideally have something 25' to 30' at a club or marina on the Great Lakes, and would also put a fun small boat like ours at the cottage. Easy and fun to sail, and more than adequate for spending a night or two aboard. And I would charter or crew for friends if I wanted to sail at an exotic destination.
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Old 10-02-2020, 10:45   #7
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

some of the old classics are really getting old. I would look for something younger than 30 years old. Cape Dory was still in business. Pacific Seacraft made a 31. there are others.
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Old 10-02-2020, 10:51   #8
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Not sure why you'd want wheel steering on a small boat, but anyway, here is a list of 72 good small offshore cruise capable boats.

And some good advise for those new to boating/sailing

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html
Steering wheels on small boats ruin cockpit ergonomics
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Old 10-02-2020, 11:23   #9
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Nor'sea 27? 8-foot beam and Lyle Hess design. Available in aft cockpit and a center cockpit. Not the cheapest boat out there, but a strong reputation for a capable cruiser. Although I've never sailed one, a good friend of mine spent a couple summers with her family on one along the California coast.


https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/199...ea-27-3549742/
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Old 10-02-2020, 11:32   #10
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

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Steering wheels on small boats ruin cockpit ergonomics

As I am researching and asking questions - hence the thread - please do explain what you mean.


To illustrate why I ask the question - go back to my 2nd point about wanting wheel steer due to ergonomics. The ergonomics I am referring to are not me getting around the cockpit, rather the operability of a tiller over extended periods of time/miles. In the way I am looking at this equation - the cockpit space is irrelevant if I can't hold up to the rigors of operating the boat. I've been down that road before - albiet in a completely different style of boat/environment (16' skiff with a 25hp motor) - but it was a tiller motor until I remoted it. So again - from an operational perspective of ergonomics - I don't like the idea of a tiller for obvious reasons if you read through what I said and understand the perspective from which I spoke. That is what I am asking for in your explanation.



How do you describe "cockpit ergonomics" and how can a wheel, contrasting to my perspective of operable ergonomics, impact that so much that it should be considered, or even viewed as an over-riding thought beyond that of ergonomics while under-way operating the boat?
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Old 10-02-2020, 12:02   #11
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor View Post
... The ergonomics I am referring to are not me getting around the cockpit, rather the operability of a tiller over extended periods of time/miles.
A tiller, besides its superior feedback, will give you a number of possible positions for sitting in the cockpit and holding it, ESPECIALLY if it has a tiller extension. I can go for hours, in a few different sitting positions. Our tiller extension is sized so that I can rest my upper arm on the coaming and lightly hold the 'T' end of the tiller extension with two fingers, and holding course with small movements of the wrist. Many other ways of holding the extension are also possible.

I can sit forward or back to optimize boat trim (more important on a smaller boat)

I can steer handsfree, standing with my legs on either side of the tiller, while pulling halyards or sheets. I've held course with my leg over the tiller while eating or drinking.

How many possible positions does a wheel offer?
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Old 10-02-2020, 12:22   #12
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

You will have an autopilot or wind vane on 98% of the time. Steering wheels take up a lot of space in a cockpit, especially a boat the size you're seeking. I think if you sit and lounge in a couple cockpits - one with tiller, other with wheel, you'll see immediately. Whether it makes a difference is personal choice.

The young couple on Sailing Project Atticus YouTube channel have 4-5 years of bouncing around the Caribbean on an old Allied Seawitch (I think) ketch with tiller. Watch some of their sailing videos to get a feel for their cockpit while underway.
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Old 10-02-2020, 12:33   #13
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I’m wondering why you want the following requirements:

A. 8-8.5’ beam
B. Wheel steering
C. Inboard engine


Boats don’t pitch that much compared to roll, that’s why stoves are only gimbaled for roll. 2 degrees of freedom would seem to me excessively complex and might also lead to more sloshing of pots. Not really sure. W degrees of freedom would required more space for the same stove when such space is already at a premium.

A. 8-8.5’ beam
To roll down the road on a trailer.



I'd rather have a boat under dimensions that would be questionable for permit territory. Overall width is the easiest one to hit with a sailboat. In sailboat terms - beam width is the number that reflects that.



Within that width limit - all other dimensions (pertaining to out of the water) are irrelevant - weight, height, and length - because they are all able to be accommodated for.


For example: I'm not going find a boat that has a beam width of under 8'6" that weighs 10,000lbs. The towing specs show 15,700lbs max for my truck (on the surface - there are other numbers that factor in to the equation, but for simplicity's sake in my example here we'll use it). If I had a boat that was 10,000lbs that still allows for 5,700lbs for the trailer - for that size of trailer that is a respectable weight allowance. For the example, though - the boat weight of 10,000lbs - is still in the realm of reason = it is not a limiting factor because, going back to the beam width, I doubt you will find any boat with a beam width under 8'6" that weighs even close to 10,000lbs. They are more in the 2,000-4,000lb weight class (6,000 to 8,000lbs shy, or 6,000-8,000lbs of head room if you want to look at it that way).



As we're speaking of weight - if we add up weights - my truck is 8500lbs empty. With the 15,700lbs for trailer combined load that gives us a gross combined weight of 24,200lbs. CDL weight hits at 26,001lbs. So looking at that I have 1800lbs headroom for CDL class. However, I do hold a class A CDL regardless, and the only endorsements I don't have are hazmat and passenger (for that matter they might as well be the same - I think hauling people around all day would drive me out of my gourd.... This is supposed to be a joke). Regardless of CDL territory, there are a lot of numbers that go in to what weight can be rolled down the road and specifically to my point of it not being a factor - I have thousands and thousands of lbs of headroom here = its not even close to a factor to consider in selecting a boat.



Once the mast is removed, I am not going to find a boat with a narrow beam where the top of the deck is over 13'6" high once mounted on a trailer. If you give a keel clearance of 18" above the ground while at rest on a trailer on level ground that allows for 12 feet between the bottom of the keel and the top of the deck. Even with a 4ft keel that allows 8ft for the hull and top of the deck. A 4' tall keel alone is a TALL keel. If you consider the boat will rest about 1.5' in to the waterline, that is a 5.5' draft. Find me a boat that is 8'6" wide, or narrower, that drafts 5.5' of water. I'm not saying they don't exist - but it is certainly not the norm.



As far as length goes - overall combination, specifically tractor/semi trailer (that means a truck and a 5th wheel or gooseneck style hitch where the pivot is on top of a drive axle or between drive axles, if tandem drive as on a class 8 = not a bumper pull trailer off a rear-mounted hitch/receiver behind a drive axle) is generally 60-75', depending on the state. TONS of room there to not be worried about it. With a 26' boat on a trailer and my truck I may be at 52' (front of bow at the bumper - would be higher than the truck so no risk of interference pivoting). That's 8' short of most shorter state limits.



To simplify the whole point - beam width is the limiting factor.



B. Wheel steering

See number 2 of the reasons I described around the middle of post #4.



C. Inboard engine

More specifically - diesel. Not gas.

1. Small diesel engines sip fuel compared to the outboard engines I am familiar with.

2. Power at low RPM - they don't need to scream to get the boat moving.
3. Going back to #1 - under the following conditions:


-- No wind
-- Broken rigging = inability to sail
-- Passages where sailing isn't possible - innercoastal waterway, canals and locks



- motoring for extended periods of time requires an extended fuel supply. The less fuel burned means for the same amount of fuel capacity a boat can run longer and go further on said fuel supply.

4. Volatility of fuel. Diesel is much less volatile than gasoline.



#4, although when you think about it from a safety perspective - it is a factor (why I listed it) - the reality is gasoline would likely be onboard anyway for a gasoline generator and probably a small outboard for a dingy as well. Considering a large supply of fuel for powering the main motor, though - I'd like to avoid gasoline.


Ideally, if I could convert everything over to diesel - generator and outboard for a dingy - that would be fantastic. Then I could only carry one fuel source. I have looked in to ways of doing that. For a generator I could come up with something fairly easily - even taking a gasoline model and swapping the engine out with a similar size diesel engine equivalent (Hatz and Robin make some of those engines, for example - used in construction grade water/trash pumps and other equipment, though there are other options and looking back in time - there were a lot more small diesel engine options from Yanmar, Kubota, Kholer, and others that could be used). There are companies, like Klaxon, that make small diesel outboard motors for dinghys - they have 4, 6, and 9hp models. However, they are not sold in the US. I presume EPA regs are the reason for that. The same is true for the very few small diesel engine options in the small engine market (power equipment etc). Speaking of generators - Winco and Generac, for example, have very few portable diesel generators. It somewhat baffles me - for as volatile as gasoline is and as efficient as diesel can be - why there aren't more types of equipment that operate on diesel.



Back to my primary point on the inboard requirement, though - it comes down to fuel efficiency. More motor time, further distance with the same amount of fuel.



I will throw in there, also, that I don't know of an outboard motor that is built to handle extended run times. Yeah, a lot of older motors may be getting long-in-the-tooth but that isn't to say they can't be pulled, overhauled, and put back in, or - replaced entirely with another motor if parts availability was a concern.
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Old 10-02-2020, 13:21   #14
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

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One thing you haven't listed is cost... I have the impression that you have a fairly tight budget? What is your budget btw?

I don't have a specific number at the moment. That is also something I am trying to form. There are a lot of considerations to the "budget" number because condition and amount of work required factor in to the equation as well. For those reasons I can't even begin to outline a "range". I'm not in a position right this minute to plunk down any amount of money on a boat, but between the above being said and saving up - when plotted on a graph those "lines", or "curves" (initial cost vs. work required) may intersect somewhere - and where I don't know. That is part of the reason of the thread - to find out whats out there.


On the point of the "work required" factor to the "graph" - I am hoping what ever I get in to, what ever that is and when ever that is, would be a boat that I could "sail" off the start without too much effort/work.



By "sail" I mean able to day sail in fair weather. If there is a lot of structural damage or rigging that is in immediate need of overhauling (more importantly standing rigging as opposed to running rigging, but they are both important) that may be a pretty big deciding factor. Wiring, upholstery, plumbing, etc needing to be worked on is another matter - they don't affect the "sailability" of the boat the same way standing rigging, for example, does. Getting nav lights to work is a non-issue so whether they do or not, to me, isn't a consideration. Same goes for any power wiring to anything (AC or DC) - easy to fix.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Hey, them's fighting words!
Our boat is 19'. Definitely small, but not as bathtubby as a WWP inside. A fixed head, and a folding table on the keel trunk, but everything else (water, basin, butane stove) is loose and stowed til needed, which leaves more space in the cabin for sitting and sleeping.

And we have friends enjoying their McGregors (one a 26D, one a 26M) and doing some towing and cruising..

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. What works for some may not work for others and vice versa. Its all good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
In your shoes (which I almost am), I would ideally have something 25' to 30' at a club or marina on the Great Lakes, and would also put a fun small boat like ours at the cottage. Easy and fun to sail, and more than adequate for spending a night or two aboard. And I would charter or crew for friends if I wanted to sail at an exotic destination.

I'm trying to avoid slip fees and dry dock fees for now. Yeah, that entails other expenses and challenges. I will weigh the options. I fully expect what ever boats I find that check my "boxes" and are attainable will require a lot of work. What I also don't want is to have a 4 hour drive to get to the boat to work on it. That is one of the headaches with the opportunities I have with my buddy's boat - its locked to a marina and is only accessible on the weekends. That limits work time way too much and then the work time takes away from the sailing time.



Again, having a boat that stays with the others at our place is an idea. That could be a smaller boat. However, it isn't in the cards at the moment. I do have a canoe with a sail conversion up there to use actually, I just wouldn't consider it a "real sailboat".



As for the smaller boat idea and staying on it for a few days - I could certainly do that. On some of my travels I run 3-4 days out of my truck (crew cab pickup). In recent years I use the back bench seat as a bed, in prior years I had bed shelves that I made for the inside of the bed (Leer 180 mid height topper on it). I have too much stuff with me on my treks to our place up north to put the shelves in these days so I don't worry about it. In any event, the idea of "staying for a few days" in a small space is possible - I just want to expand the options as much as I can.



"Living space" is only part of the equation - the size of the boat affects how it handles different sea conditions. To that point - the bigger the boat the bigger/rougher the water it can handle. We've sailed my buddy's 37' sloop on water that I would crap myself in if I was in one of our old cuddy cabins (21-23'). The same water in a smaller sailboat would most certainly be "rough", but with a sailboat cutting through better and the inherent stability (heavy keel) I'd be a lot better off than a powerboat - even of the same length.



I wouldn't consider any of my destinations "exotic destinations". Maybe the western and southwestern Pacific or Arctic Ocean, yea. I don't see those in my future, at least not with any boat I could see as being attainable in my future at this point. On someone else's boat with a crew - maybe.
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Old 10-02-2020, 13:25   #15
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Re: Cruise capable, smaller boats?

Ok, I’ll certainly recommend mine, Columbia 29. It has the 8’ beam. Feel free to check my albums for photos. However they did not come with wheels, and a diesel onboard would have been an upgrade from the A4. I know you are set on a wheel, but I too would recommend against it. I think any boat with an 8’ beam will be very tight for the wheel. And, in my boat I can raise the tiller so it does not occupy the cockpit and, given the angle of the rudder stock, I can steer while sitting on the lazarette with the tiller all the way up. So that is sort of having a wheel.
My boat weighs in upwards of 8k# so realistically you’d need a 3 axle trailer and a truck that can tow over 10k#. I know there are a few up there in the Great Lakes!
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