Cruise capable, smaller boats?

[roland stockham]

I have a few comments, my first cruising boat was a 26ft classic from the 60s so have some experience.
Headroom. Generally the distance from keelson (or bottom of the hull if no keelson) to the cabin deck head should be no greater than the beam. Allowing for floors and cabin sole this generally means you need at least 9ft and preferably 10ft to get 6ft headroom. There are boats that don't follow this rule but having high freeboard on a small boat will have a negative impact on sailing performance. The effect is raised center of gravity, less stability, high windage leading to less manoverability and more pron to yawing at anchor. At 26ft expect headroom to be limited in most of the accommodation, 28-30ft you should get headroom over most of the main saloon. 32ft yes 6ft in saloon. Only when you get to 35ft does it become practical in all areas.

At 26ft or less outboards work fine and have some advantages. Does not need space below for engine and tanks, on a 26fter this can be very significant. Easy access (try fighting you way around the engine on a small boat) any maintenance can be do by taking the engine into the shop. Very maneuverable, steer from the engine tiller and you have a stern thruster! It is also much cheaper to buy. The down side is high fuel consumption and no electrical generation. For lake sailing it may be worth considering.
Draft. 4ft on a 26ft boat is reasonable. Any bigger and you need to be looking at some type of drop keel to stay under 4ft. The keel moment has to balance to sail moment and keep the center of gravity near the water line. This can only be done by length, weight or beam. Going excessive on any of these on a small boats kills any performance or becomes very specialized.

[Bcharles123]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Dolby

First, I would second the opinion of a Seaward. My father owns a Seaward 25 (mid 2000’s before they came out with the RK version) it’s a wonderful tailerable boat and I would definitely cruise it, very well built. Second, I owned a 1981 Watkins 27 that meets all but the gimbled stove requirements, special trailer needed. I lived on and cruised this boat for over 2 years and 6000 plus miles in between Delaware and the Bahamas. At the time I was in my mid 20’s (10years ago) and entering the cruising Lifestyle. I had a tiller version but they did make one with a wheel. Had a Yanmar 2qm15 diesel that was bulletproof and easy to maintain. The second year of cruising it was me and my girl, and we had plenty of adventures. I felt comfortable taking her (the boat) offshore on longer passages. Overall it was a great boat and the price is not as much as a Seaward but Im Sure it would require a refit to get one ready to cruise. There is a Watkins owners website that can be a ton of help! Currently I am refitting a 1989 Seaward 23 to cruise southwest Florida and the keys. Maybe run it out to the Bahamas as well. This is a great topic and any questions you have I’ll be happy to give my input! Good Luck in your search!!!

Hey Capt!

I’m a few years out but the Seawards do look like a good boat for the Great Lakes. I’m on the Milwaukee river with my own pier but have to go under 9 bridges to get to lake Michigan. I posted earlier a question about folding masts. As far as I can tell, it’s an hour of effort.

While it would be awesome to park at home and sail anywhere in the world from my back door, If it’s too much work, plus it’s important to do absolutely correctly, I’ll just put something in the marina (in which case many many options like the OP)

But since you know about this brand, any experience about raising and lowering the mast? Doesn’t have to be fully de-rigged for trailer, just be able to pass under bridges. The lowest is 30ft when raised (boats have right of way) and 13ft when not raised. Thanks!

[Cheechako]

The coveted classic Tartan 27
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/tartan-27

[fred4936]

I would have to second the nomination of the Tartan 27. Yes, I am selling mine, but even if mine does not fit your requirements, they are worth a look. The 27-2 does have close to 6' headroom throughout. They are great sailing boats, sturdy, and trailerable.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor

I've been going through some online listings just to see whats out there for boats. Maybe what I'm looking for just doesn't exist.

What I'm looking for is a boat like a Hunter, Classic, or O'Day, 70's-80's vintage, with:
- beam width between 8' and 8'6"
- diesel inboard
- wheel steer (or the ability to convert to)
- Interior accommodating several days to a couple weeks of time onboard
--- Preferably a gimbal-mounted range, but that may not be too hard to upgrade to (looks like most gimbals are 1 axis - roll, not pitch, so maybe an upgrade to dual axis would be best - smaller boats will pitch more anyway)

- 6' or more headroom below deck

- Length - as big as possible (limiting dimension appears to be the beam width)
- 4' draft or less ideally

The Classic 26 is 8'4", for example, but uses an outboard motor.

Boats like West Wight Potters and MacGregors are too much like glorified bathtubs inside and too small. Same goes for Hunters etc under 25' - too small. Any of them newer than 90's vintage all seem like the same kind of bathtub-like construction inside.

Any other ideas from the group to look in to? I suppose if what I was looking for was more common I would have come across more by now. Just trying to get some ideas...

I haven't read all the replies yet but from those I have it appears that you have been doing all your looking on the Internet and not at the marinas. Many small boats for sale will not be sold through brokers or make it on the popular listing sites except maybe craigslist or eBay. I shopped for five years (made a couple of offers that were not accepted) before buying mine.

You have received more than enough suggestions to get out and start looking at boats...you can't look at enough of them. When you get tired of looking, look some more. Actually being on the boats will give you an actual feel of how you FIT with them and maybe cause you to revise your list of "must haves" because all boats are compromises.

My only suggestion is that if you are thinking of sailing offshore get a boat with an inboard diesel engine.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[GreatLakeSailor]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

I have a few comments, my first cruising boat was a 26ft classic from the 60s so have some experience.
Headroom. Generally the distance from keelson (or bottom of the hull if no keelson) to the cabin deck head should be no greater than the beam. Allowing for floors and cabin sole this generally means you need at least 9ft and preferably 10ft to get 6ft headroom. There are boats that don't follow this rule but having high freeboard on a small boat will have a negative impact on sailing performance. The effect is raised center of gravity, less stability, high windage leading to less manoverability and more pron to yawing at anchor. At 26ft expect headroom to be limited in most of the accommodation, 28-30ft you should get headroom over most of the main saloon. 32ft yes 6ft in saloon. Only when you get to 35ft does it become practical in all areas.


Draft. 4ft on a 26ft boat is reasonable. Any bigger and you need to be looking at some type of drop keel to stay under 4ft. The keel moment has to balance to sail moment and keep the center of gravity near the water line. This can only be done by length, weight or beam. Going excessive on any of these on a small boats kills any performance or becomes very specialized.

Thanks for your well-explained post.



I know there are physics involved in sailboat design. I am admittedly not up to speed on all of the details - enough to keep on learning though. As others have mentioned - it may be a challenge finding anything that "checks all the boxes" so compromises may need to be made in places. From a sailability perspective - there are some things that far out weigh others - hull + keel integrity, bulkhead strength, mast integrity (how it is stepped and what supports it), rigging, and as you are getting at with the keel vs sail moment - the stability.



I've laid a small boat over, went for a swim, and had to pull the sail and mast in the water before getting it upright and out of the water next to my dock (used the big rocks as a bit of a ramp to inch the swamped boat up). With a more enclosed hull design swamping isn't as big of a concern, but I'd rather avoid going over so far as to rinse off the sails.



Another boat in a similar class is the Albin Vega. I do recall one of the design considerations was a lower roof due to sleek design and sailing performance. I don't have a specific reference off the top of my head, but that information and the realization of being hunched over below deck for any length of time aren't attractive thoughts for me and why I didn't mention the boat as an option.


Somewhere along the lines I heard of a boat that was deck stepped and one of the common upfittings was adding reinforcement to support the mast and keep the deck from giving in a bit over time. If I recall - part of the problem was the deck was laminated wood covered with fiberglass. Water intrusion at the mast would cause the wood inside the fiberglass to rot out. The fix was to cut that section of deck out, reconstruct it with aluminum bracing, and close it back up. If you look at the process that is a lot of work, but that is also a good fix. If you look at the whole idea of deck-stepped masts it would seem like a wise idea to have proper aluminum bracing underneath it regardless. Yeah, there are support braces you can put in place to transfer the load down to the keel, but on a smaller boat getting the mast out of the saloon would open things up a LOT below deck... Something else to consider.

Originally Posted by roland stockham

At 26ft or less outboards work fine and have some advantages. Does not need space below for engine and tanks, on a 26fter this can be very significant. Easy access (try fighting you way around the engine on a small boat) any maintenance can be do by taking the engine into the shop. Very maneuverable, steer from the engine tiller and you have a stern thruster! It is also much cheaper to buy. The down side is high fuel consumption and no electrical generation. For lake sailing it may be worth considering.

Thanks for the thoughts on the stern thruster. I can see that helping. However, as highlighted above - the fuel consumption, first off, is my primary problem with outboard motors. Electrical generation - some motors do. There are electric start 9.9 kickers that have alternators. These are used on fishing boats. Looks like the Merc lineup has alternator power down to an 8hp. 9.9 and 8 models have 6 amps, 15hp has 12 amps.



All the factors considered, if fuel is a precious commodity on a boat (which it is...) a motor that burns 25% more fuel at the same speed (we'll say a mild 10knts) is going to go 80% of the distance. Or, the engine that burns 25% less fuel will go 20% further. That is a significant amount of difference when you can't simply refuel on a trip.



Numbers to illustrate the percentages only (consumption and speed just thrown in here):
10knts speed
tank gap 45gal



At a fuel consumption of 2gal/hr @ 10kts that is 225 nm
At a fuel consumption of 2.5gal/hr (25% more) @ 10kts that is 180nm

For several years, and I still use it from time to time, I ran our 16ft lund with a '93MY Johnson 25hp 2 stroke motor. I decreased the pitch of the prop from 13 to 11 because I found when I loaded down the boat to explore it would barely get on plane with the 13. I needed more push so the 11 was it. I ran burn calculations and it came out to pretty much 4 miles/gal. I don't recall what the time rate was because when I planned my trips I used 4mpg as my base. When doing a trip of 160 miles or so that means 40 gallons of gas. 2x 12 gallon tanks, 2x 6 gallon tanks, 2x 5gal cans = 46 gallons in 6 containers. That takes up a lotta space on a small boat! Not to mention the weight of that much fuel.

So again - going back to the inboard requirement on my list - I am pretty dead set on that unless there is a fuel efficient diesel outboard that comes along that is attainable in the US market in the near future. Somehow I think even if that comes it is going to be cost prohibitive. For example, a little horizontal shaft 9.9hp Hatz diesel engine is around $3,500 - and that is a bare motor. If that cost is 3x that of a gasoline engine and an equivalent HP outboard kicker motor is about $3,000 (merc 9.9) - what is a diesel engine on that outboard chassis/frame (mid+lower units) going to cost? I wouldn't imagine the cost of the mid+lower units would be too much different to produce - but the diesel power plant could be a huge wildcard - not just the cost of production but the manufacturer will need to recoup EPA cert costs = built in to the cost of the overall product passed on to the customer. That could easily double the overall cost of an outboard. At that rate - we're looking at $6,000+ - nearing the cost of an entire boat!! Again, cost prohibitive. So in getting an inboard diesel that is efficient from the start - that seems to me, in my logic outlined here - the way to go. Yeah, you can argue the serviceability or "if your're in the middle of xyz trip and it breaks down..." scenarios - but I am good with motors and at the worst if a motor would need to be replaced a boat set up with an inboard is already going to have the primary set up for it - motor well, shaft, prop, etc.



Going back to an earlier post on the budget - the above is also right in line with why I am not able to define that. The above entirely supports variability in where the "lines" intersect. The above does, however, support due-diligence in research and knowing what I'm looking at, though. If 2 boats are out there as possibilities and one is $1500 more with good standing rigging and a running motor - it might be worth the extra investment. Or, if there are 2 boats that meet my criteria and one boat has a common motor that is reliable with lots of parts availability but is $3000 more, even if both motors run, the ability of keeping the common motor with parts available going may be worth that cost. Lots to consider.

[GreatLakeSailor]

Originally Posted by MJH

I haven't read all the replies yet but from those I have it appears that you have been doing all your looking on the Internet and not at the marinas. Many small boats for sale will not be sold through brokers or make it on the popular listing sites except maybe craigslist or eBay. I shopped for five years (made a couple of offers that were not accepted) before buying mine.

Thanks for the thoughts. Most of my research has been online, the vast majority, but not all.

Originally Posted by MJH

You have received more than enough suggestions to get out and start looking at boats...you can't look at enough of them. When you get tired of looking, look some more. Actually being on the boats will give you an actual feel of how you FIT with them and maybe cause you to revise your list of "must haves" because all boats are compromises.

Good point - and yes when I get the opportunity to check some out as I get up to my buddy's I will. I've stopped by a few at the end of peoples' driveways with for sale signs before. I'll keep my eyes open. They're all worth a look even if they are obviously in rough shape. Although - I would be willing to bet I'll never find a boat the size I'm after at the end of someones driveway with a for sale sign unless it is a town right next to one of the great lakes.

Originally Posted by MJH

My only suggestion is that if you are thinking of sailing offshore get a boat with an inboard diesel engine.

I'm glad someone else second's my thought/opinion. However - I would be curious if you have more thoughts as to why you state that from your experience?

[jfischgrund]

Cape Dory 27' or 28'. Well built boats. Inboard diesels and tillers, although some may have been retrofitted with wheels, 6' headroom. Not a boat to trailer around and launch at a ramp . . . but a delight to sail.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor

Thanks for your well-explained post.



I know there are physics involved in sailboat design. I am admittedly not up to speed on all of the details - enough to keep on learning though. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You should be aware that there are entire BOOKS written on this subject.


Here's one:


https://www.amazon.com/Desirable-Und...s&sr=1-1-spell


and


https://www.amazon.com/Nigel-Calders...p%2C449&sr=1-1

[smbdyiam2]

Allmand hms 23
Changed big wheel steering to small wheel in a box mounted on starboard side.

[Pete7]

Contessa 26 fits the size limits and Tania Aebi took one around the world when she was 18. The book is very worth while reading. Whilst designed in the UK I believe a set of molds were taken to Canada hence a number, with higher coach roof, appear in NA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tania_Aebi

Pretty little boat with the look back factor as you row away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYy4HggYLBE

[KP44]

I have heard the Cascade 29 is a small, capable sailor with a one cylinder diesel.
Beam is 8' 2".

[smbdyiam2]

allmand hms 23 Has all that he listed. I got mine in raffle 2 tickets at $20 each and wife won . with 2 axle trailer. every where we take it people say That is a neat looking boat. "what did it cost?" I smile .
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/Allmand

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by GreatLakeSailor

I've been going through some online listings just to see whats out there for boats. Maybe what I'm looking for just doesn't exist.


What I'm looking for is a boat like a Hunter, Classic, or O'Day, 70's-80's vintage, with:
- beam width between 8' and 8'6"
- diesel inboard
- wheel steer (or the ability to convert to)
- Interior accommodating several days to a couple weeks of time onboard
--- Preferably a gimbal-mounted range, but that may not be too hard to upgrade to (looks like most gimbals are 1 axis - roll, not pitch, so maybe an upgrade to dual axis would be best - smaller boats will pitch more anyway)

- 6' or more headroom below deck

- Length - as big as possible (limiting dimension appears to be the beam width)
- 4' draft or less ideally



The Classic 26 is 8'4", for example, but uses an outboard motor.



Boats like West Wight Potters and MacGregors are too much like glorified bathtubs inside and too small. Same goes for Hunters etc under 25' - too small. Any of them newer than 90's vintage all seem like the same kind of bathtub-like construction inside.


Any other ideas from the group to look in to? I suppose if what I was looking for was more common I would have come across more by now. Just trying to get some ideas...

You may look for an O'Day 27. The gimbled stove your on your own. Not as fancy as some competitors, but those curtains to please the wife are long gone
A reasonably good sailing and sea boat. Their next model was a 28 which I can't speak to. Looked to beany for your requirements.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I can steer handsfree, standing with my legs on either side of the tiller, while pulling halyards or sheets. I've held course with my leg over the tiller while eating or drinking.

Years ago now, I made numerous coastal passages on the West Coast of the US and Canada in a Newport 28 (C&C design). It had a tiller and I frequently steered as you describe (in fairness, I also had a tiller auto pilot and a tiller extension). I did not find the tiller to be a drawback, and it certainly easily swung up out of the way when at anchor or tied to a dock.