Boat pricing

[goat]

Originally Posted by BlueMaxx

Markwesti...
Ay'up...that would make the short list for sure....

I really really like the
Pacific Seacraft (Orion) & up to 34'
Island Packet
This 1981 C.E. Ryder SeaSprite 34'


Also, I mentioned full keel...really that is because I am such a beginner I felt it would give me some extra error room for stupid tax. Also when I first started looking I thought I had to have a "blue-water" cruiser which I see now as synonymous with "pocket-cruiser" unicorns and pickled eel pharts.
Hipsters have to sell their lifestyle I suppose...

I need to be challenged with my "why's" as I go along by good folks like yourself.

Truthfully for the next at least say five years I will be hugging the coast, traveling around part of the US I have never see...I dont see myself as the next old man of the sea in my boat in the middle of the Atlantic.

1 dose realism wakes one up......so really the more I think about it a shallower draft boat will allow more opportunities for dropping anchor.

I want something that will sail to the wind well and handle a storm, as bomb-proof (read idiot proof) and comfortable as I can find and afford.. Im am totally ok with <32'.

And again, the less I spend to begin with the more I cruise.

Damn, these last 6 months are so are going to be worse than being a kid at Christmas



1981 C.E. Ryder Sea Sprite 34 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

That's a great looking boat size-wise and layout (except someone stuck a binnacle right in the middle of the cockpit) :^)
Take a look at Cape Dories as well, some of the models are quite seaworthy but Plain-Jane enough not to have a premium price.
Also, once you get above 34 feet or so, most of the production boats are suitable for your intended cruising grounds. That to me is the difference in the argument of bluewater coastal blah-blah-blah. My '83 was built to take a family across oceans, at 27 feet you couldn't sell that today. Boats, like houses have grown to the demands of today's family. Not many manufactures are going to spend the money to builld a 30' boat intended to go offshore, not many home builders will build a custom 800 sq ft family home on spec either.

[zeehag]

when you go into potential purchase of a boat, make sure you know how it handles and sails BEFORE you buy.
youhave chosen all boats that hold value well, as they are desired pocket cruisers.
why not try sailing some boats on or off that restrictive list an d see how they perform, are they to your expectations, or....
and before panning wetsnail boats, do look at some of the home builds--i found one in san diego that was incredible inside and out. some folks who built kits actually knew what they were doing. it is only the few who didnt t hat screwed the rep of a very solid comfortable cruiser.
i almost bought one a few yuears before i found my formosa-- was absolutely awesome. had everything i wanted and sought but no electronix and the dead owners family would not reduce price of the 20 yr neglected beauty.
good luck in yoiur search, do sail before you choose, as sailing the boat could well influence yoiur choice, if you enjoy sailing.
of course if you only plan to dock queen, anything is ok, as it will never sail away from dock.

[lamadriver]

Great thread.

Ive been in the market for a boat for about a year. Its been an incredibly frustrating experience. Many of the above comments are spot on.

The first boat I was serioulsy interested in I made an offer at 18% under asking and the owner got offended and refused to talk to me. My offer was based on previous sales and condition. I came a bit and we met in the middle but when it came to survey there were issues and he though a 15 year old digny and a 8hp outboard were his bargining chip!. In the end I walked due a tip from one of the marina boys. I found out about damage he didnt ( and wouldnt disclose).

The next two boats the owners were so pround they wont come off the asking price. Its crazy , both boats have been on the market for some time.

There seems to be this emotional attachments with boats; something I have not seen in any other business. People expect to get what they paid years past.

I agree with the above advice if you make an reasonable offer and they counter with some BS figure , just walk, it is more trouble than its worth. If someone wants to sell they will meet you in the middle.

I just hope I find what im looking for soon. its getting expensive and tiring looking at boats ( never boring )

LD

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by lamadriver

I agree with the above advice if you make an reasonable offer and they counter with some BS figure , just walk, it is more trouble than its worth. If someone wants to sell they will meet you in the middle.

I know what you're saying lamadriver, but I'd temper your characterization of the seller countering with a "BS figure." I'd say it's a bit unfair for the buyer to make this kind of determination. A selling price is calculated by the seller based on a whole range of factors, much like the buyer's offer. For most cruising boats, there is no single 'correct price.'

As someone who has been on both ends of the buyer/seller arrangement I alway prefer people to be up front and clear. As the buyer, once you've done your due diligence, make an offer that makes sense to you. As the seller, be clear what range you're willing to accept. This way no one wastes anyone's time.

Originally Posted by lamadriver

I just hope I find what im looking for soon. its getting expensive and tiring looking at boats ( never boring )

It can get tiring, and expensive since you have to travel to view boats. I'm happy not to be looking anymore, but I learned to view whole buying (and selling) process as part of the journey. Enjoy it .

[Island Time O25]

IMO the biggest culprit in overinflated prices (other than overinflated egos and overinflated views of boat's worth) are sites sich as YW or some such which push the prices up to ridiculous levels. When I was naive newbie and was even looking at prices on the last pages of the various sailing and boating mags (gasp!) YW prices seemed reasonable. Once I started hitting the real world - marinas, boatyards, sailboatlistings, etc. everything settled into proper perspective.

Most boat brokers, perhaps to push new boat sales, overinflate used boat's estimated worth, sometimes quite a bit. Either that's by design (to sell a new or newer boat to the seller of a listed boat) or by default (just too lazy to properly evaluate what they're selling) or greed (hoping that someday they'll make some $$ even on mispriced boat) I don't know. But the boat market being what it is and considering the time an average boat is on the market the asking prices and real boat's worth are way out of sync. Perhaps by as much as 50% or more. If we had a true public registry of boats sold, the way we have with houses, the boat market would only improve and the prices and inventory would go down significantly.

Very few sellers realize that they bought a dream and now are just re-selling that dream. And how many of our dreams coincide with what the others dream of? And may be there lies the culprit for these price/value discreprancies as someone's dreams may be worth a whole lot of nothing to most, as painful as it may be to hear.

[Drift Woods]

I'm in the process of switching from twin power to sail. When selling my boat I ended up getting a little more then the average condition price on the NADA web site. My boat was way above average but was just tired paying the bills.


My question to this group is. Is the NADA guide close when it comes sailboats? Im looking for 34 Catalina that will never leave the site of land.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by lamadriver

Great thread.

Ive been in the market for a boat for about a year. Its been an incredibly frustrating experience. Many of the above comments are spot on.

The first boat I was serioulsy interested in I made an offer at 18% under asking and the owner got offended and refused to talk to me. My offer was based on previous sales and condition. I came a bit and we met in the middle but when it came to survey there were issues and he though a 15 year old digny and a 8hp outboard were his bargining chip!. In the end I walked due a tip from one of the marina boys. I found out about damage he didnt ( and wouldnt disclose).

The next two boats the owners were so pround they wont come off the asking price. Its crazy , both boats have been on the market for some time.

There seems to be this emotional attachments with boats; something I have not seen in any other business. People expect to get what they paid years past.

I agree with the above advice if you make an reasonable offer and they counter with some BS figure , just walk, it is more trouble than its worth. If someone wants to sell they will meet you in the middle.

I just hope I find what im looking for soon. its getting expensive and tiring looking at boats ( never boring )

LD

I see a lot of rants on the forum about brokers and the inflated price you pay to cover their commission. I was a broker and my experience did not reflect that at all but more like what you report.

These of course are generalities and like any similar statement there will be plenty of exceptions. However this I think represented the majority of the sellers I encountered. The sellers that listed their boats with brokers really did want to sell their boats and were realistic about the price. Very many of the boats I saw for sale by owner were overpriced for a number of reasons:

- The seller didn't really want to sell the boat so priced it too high intentionally Maybe the wife said sell so he could show here it was listed but just couldn't find a buyer. Or seller figured if someone does pay that much for it then it's worth selling.

- The seller did want to sell but was emotionally attached to the boat and priced it based on emotion instead of true market value.

- The seller kept track of everything that had been spent on the boat and priced it "to get his money back out of it". I saw this a lot.

- The seller knew that all brokers are crooks and con artists and were trying to get the boat listed for less than the seller knew it was really worth for an easy sale.

Bottom line, the majority of the boats I sold were at prices lower than similar for sale by owner boats so the buyers got a good deal. Yes the seller had to pay a commission but the boat was sold, unlike the overpriced boats that I saw sometimes for years on the market.


Now to be fair, with the internet and all the additional resources for buying and selling boats I think today there are more options to buy direct from the owner but the same cautions still apply.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

IMO the biggest culprit in overinflated prices (other than overinflated egos and overinflated views of boat's worth) are sites sich as YW or some such which push the prices up to ridiculous levels. When I was naive newbie and was even looking at prices on the last pages of the various sailing and boating mags (gasp!) YW prices seemed reasonable. Once I started hitting the real world - marinas, boatyards, sailboatlistings, etc. everything settled into proper perspective.

Don't know what size and type of boat you're referring to but a couple of comments. First, finding boats through marinas and yards may work for smaller boats but larger, well maintained cruisers are rarely sold this way. Sometimes and older, neglected project boats but rarely one in top condition.

Also, it really is not in their best interest for brokers to grossly inflate the price of boats for sale. Brokers don't make anything for advertising a boat, only when it actually sells. What I do see is most brokers will not list a neglected, fixer-upper, project boat so you may be seeing prices for the cream of the crop vs the low end examples of the same boat being offered by owners or boat yards.

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Most boat brokers, perhaps to push new boat sales, overinflate used boat's estimated worth, sometimes quite a bit. Either that's by design (to sell a new or newer boat to the seller of a listed boat) or by default (just too lazy to properly evaluate what they're selling) or greed (hoping that someday they'll make some $$ even on mispriced boat) I don't know. But the boat market being what it is and considering the time an average boat is on the market the asking prices and real boat's worth are way out of sync. Perhaps by as much as 50% or more. If we had a true public registry of boats sold, the way we have with houses, the boat market would only improve and the prices and inventory would go down significantly.

Certainly there are more than a few brokers that are lazy, naïve, inexperienced with a wide range of boats, etc. so yes you can encounter overinflated prices due to these reasons. But again, no sale, no commission for the broker. Also any broker worth his/her salt will understand the buyers budget and not waste time trying to sell something new that is way over that budget. Not to mention that a lot of brokers only sell used boats and don't have a line of new boats to rep.

And I have seen cases where boats sold for half the asking price but I also know someone that won the lottery. You have as much chance at either.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Drift Woods

I'm in the process of switching from twin power to sail. When selling my boat I ended up getting a little more then the average condition price on the NADA web site. My boat was way above average but was just tired paying the bills.


My question to this group is. Is the NADA guide close when it comes sailboats? Im looking for 34 Catalina that will never leave the site of land.

I would say the NADA would be in the ballpark but I wouldn't buy based strictly on that information. The NADA is commonly used by banks and insurance companies to determine loan or insurable value and by dealers to get a price. In the real world there will be significant variations due to regional market situations and the condition of the boat.

Use the NADA price as part of the process but also learn the market for your boat by looking at as many listings as possible by brokers, owners, etc.

[BlueMaxx]

Originally Posted by zeehag

when you go into potential purchase of a boat, make sure you know how it handles and sails BEFORE you buy.
youhave chosen all boats that hold value well, as they are desired pocket cruisers.
why not try sailing some boats on or off that restrictive list an d see how they perform, are they to your expectations, or....
and before panning wetsnail boats, do look at some of the home builds--i found one in san diego that was incredible inside and out. some folks who built kits actually knew what they were doing. it is only the few who didnt t hat screwed the rep of a very solid comfortable cruiser.
i almost bought one a few yuears before i found my formosa-- was absolutely awesome. had everything i wanted and sought but no electronix and the dead owners family would not reduce price of the 20 yr neglected beauty.
good luck in yoiur search, do sail before you choose, as sailing the boat could well influence yoiur choice, if you enjoy sailing.
of course if you only plan to dock queen, anything is ok, as it will never sail away from dock.

As an aside I am taking a fall vacation to Annapolis and other parts of the East Coast where I may find a boat I am interested in.
I may or may not have a broker at that time depending on the selling of the house, ect.

And when the broker choice comes I will be bending y'all's ear again....


I would not buy without a sail on a particular boat. I guess I just assumed it was part of the process.



One of the first pieces I received on this process a while ago...


Selecting a cruising boat is one of the most important decisions in pre-paring for an offshore voyage and often is a pivotal point in the changing of dreams from "Let's take off and go cruising sometime" into the reality of "Let's get outfitted and go." Obviously there isn't any single design perfect for everyone; the boat you choose should be safe, comfortable, well-built, and ideally capable of fast passages and prove to be a good investment. The process of selecting and purchasing a boat for long distance cruising usually takes six to 12 months. First you'll need to research boat types which suit your budget, wants and needs. Be patient, ask questions and learn everything you can. If your plans are for coastal cruising you'll be able to consider a wider range of boats than those suited for long-distance ocean passages. Secondly, you'll need to locate, examine, survey, test sail, complete the purchase trans-action and possibly ship or deliver your new boat to a place convenient for outfitting.
If you make a poor choice, you may be plagued with structural problems, leaks, slow, uncomfortable passages, endless repairs and a low resale price. I mention resale price now, because the money used for purchasing cruising boats represents a substantial part of many people's life savings. Although sailboats are rarely a "good" investment in strictly monetary terms, you'll want to recoup as much of your original purchase price when it comes time to sell.


So I am diligently doing so now...



Cheers,

M

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Don't know what size and type of boat you're referring to but a couple of comments. First, finding boats through marinas and yards may work for smaller boats but larger, well maintained cruisers are rarely sold this way. Sometimes and older, neglected project boats but rarely one in top condition.

Also, it really is not in their best interest for brokers to grossly inflate the price of boats for sale. Brokers don't make anything for advertising a boat, only when it actually sells. What I do see is most brokers will not list a neglected, fixer-upper, project boat so you may be seeing prices for the cream of the crop vs the low end examples of the same boat being offered by owners or boat yards.

Certainly there are more than a few brokers that are lazy, naïve, inexperienced with a wide range of boats, etc. so yes you can encounter overinflated prices due to these reasons. But again, no sale, no commission for the broker. Also any broker worth his/her salt will understand the buyers budget and not waste time trying to sell something new that is way over that budget. Not to mention that a lot of brokers only sell used boats and don't have a line of new boats to rep.

And I have seen cases where boats sold for half the asking price but I also know someone that won the lottery. You have as much chance at either.

I was referring mostly to the 20-25+ yrs old boats. I do not profess to know much about 5-15yrs old market. But quite a few of the boats I came across initially in $10K-20K range ended up donated or given away for the yard storage fees. Now of course many of CF members who own high end recent models or new catabenehunbavs will scoff and declare these boats junk to begin with yet most of them simply needed a good and thorough cleaning and may be more recent sail inventory but were otherwise in sailable condition but not bristol condition of course.

One of my marine pro buddies used to run a decently profitable operation getting such boats for next to nothing, cleaning and sprucing them up for a tidy profit. But this was pre-2008 recession. He would usually end up selling them at the initial asking price meaning to me that the original sellers were too lazy or too broke to bring the boat up to a decent shape and then sell her for the price they were aiming for.

BTW that same guy tells me that very few of the visibly neglected boats were totally unsalvageable junk. Most, perhaps 9 out of 10, just needed cleaning, some elbow grease and relatively simple (for him) engine work.

[BlueMaxx]

Originally Posted by lamadriver

Great thread.

Ive been in the market for a boat for about a year. Its been an incredibly frustrating experience. Many of the above comments are spot on.

The first boat I was serioulsy interested in I made an offer at 18% under asking and the owner got offended and refused to talk to me. My offer was based on previous sales and condition. I came a bit and we met in the middle but when it came to survey there were issues and he though a 15 year old digny and a 8hp outboard were his bargining chip!. In the end I walked due a tip from one of the marina boys. I found out about damage he didnt ( and wouldnt disclose).

The next two boats the owners were so pround they wont come off the asking price. Its crazy , both boats have been on the market for some time.

There seems to be this emotional attachments with boats; something I have not seen in any other business. People expect to get what they paid years past.

I agree with the above advice if you make an reasonable offer and they counter with some BS figure , just walk, it is more trouble than its worth. If someone wants to sell they will meet you in the middle.

I just hope I find what im looking for soon. its getting expensive and tiring looking at boats ( never boring )

LD

THIS is why as a neophyte I am going to employ a broker.....

[BlueMaxx]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

IMO the biggest culprit in overinflated prices (other than overinflated egos and overinflated views of boat's worth) are sites sich as YW or some such which push the prices up to ridiculous levels. When I was naive newbie and was even looking at prices on the last pages of the various sailing and boating mags (gasp!) YW prices seemed reasonable. Once I started hitting the real world - marinas, boatyards, sailboatlistings, etc. everything settled into proper perspective.

Most boat brokers, perhaps to push new boat sales, overinflate used boat's estimated worth, sometimes quite a bit. Either that's by design (to sell a new or newer boat to the seller of a listed boat) or by default (just too lazy to properly evaluate what they're selling) or greed (hoping that someday they'll make some $$ even on mispriced boat) I don't know. But the boat market being what it is and considering the time an average boat is on the market the asking prices and real boat's worth are way out of sync. Perhaps by as much as 50% or more. If we had a true public registry of boats sold, the way we have with houses, the boat market would only improve and the prices and inventory would go down significantly.

Very few sellers realize that they bought a dream and now are just re-selling that dream. And how many of our dreams coincide with what the others dream of? And may be there lies the culprit for these price/value discreprancies as someone's dreams may be worth a whole lot of nothing to most, as painful as it may be to hear.

I have also learned so called "cult-boats" are very high.

[BlueMaxx]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I see a lot of rants on the forum about brokers and the inflated price you pay to cover their commission. I was a broker and my experience did not reflect that at all but more like what you report.

These of course are generalities and like any similar statement there will be plenty of exceptions. However this I think represented the majority of the sellers I encountered. The sellers that listed their boats with brokers really did want to sell their boats and were realistic about the price. Very many of the boats I saw for sale by owner were overpriced for a number of reasons:

- The seller didn't really want to sell the boat so priced it too high intentionally Maybe the wife said sell so he could show here it was listed but just couldn't find a buyer. Or seller figured if someone does pay that much for it then it's worth selling.

- The seller did want to sell but was emotionally attached to the boat and priced it based on emotion instead of true market value.

- The seller kept track of everything that had been spent on the boat and priced it "to get his money back out of it". I saw this a lot.

- The seller knew that all brokers are crooks and con artists and were trying to get the boat listed for less than the seller knew it was really worth for an easy sale.

Bottom line, the majority of the boats I sold were at prices lower than similar for sale by owner boats so the buyers got a good deal. Yes the seller had to pay a commission but the boat was sold, unlike the overpriced boats that I saw sometimes for years on the market.


Now to be fair, with the internet and all the additional resources for buying and selling boats I think today there are more options to buy direct from the owner but the same cautions still apply.

Does the Broker assume any liability at all when they sell a boat?
Just to keep everyone honest?

[Island Time O25]

Speaking of test sails. When surveying my current boat I was lucky enough to have two very experienced marine pros buddies of mine examine her on the hard and both pronounced her "a very good sailor" based on her forms, etc. And as the budget prevented my spending on launch/haul out and mast stepping/unstepping fees, etc. I went with their recommendations without the sail try outs. Turned out even better than they initially pronounced. One of them who sometime sails with me keeps saying that if he ever had to down size from his 46 footer he'd get that particular model and is generally impressed with her stability and her tank-like characteristics in rough seas. His own 46 footer is a former Admiral Cup racer and is a bit too squirely even though she, contrary to usual race-built tradition, is also built like a tank albeit a light one, his 45 footer displaces 22,000lbs while my 36 footer - 17,000lbs.

And he did pick up that former racing queen for the cost of the yard fees. Had to replace an engine and could have used her as is or sell her for a very good profit to some racing nut (on FL-MA delivery in a steady 20-25kts breeze she was doing 12-13kts with some down wave spurs of 14-16kts over ground) but decided to refurbish her as a liveaboard which meant a lot of add'l work and installations. But that's another story. The fact is that there are many many decent boats available in all sizes and price ranges if one does not mind getting out there and looking hard and wide for a deal.