Beneteau oceanis 55

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

My boat is a staysail rigged ketch. Having owned neither ketch nor cutter before, I was skeptical of what to expect performance-wise...at first. Now, I wouldn't only anything but for cruising.

In heavy weather (50+ knots, 16-18ft seas), I can (and have) really keep to boat settled down and in control by going jib and jigger. If things get really nasty, I can go with the mizzen and storm staysail, or the mizzen alone. That's just something you can't do with a sloop...although that is not to say sloops are less safe or less capable in a storm.

They're wonderful and also very beautiful to look at.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

They're wonderful and also very beautiful to look at.

A nice blend of modern and traditional design elements...and well priced...hmmm

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002...n#.WHJuAuxOLCQ

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

My boat is a staysail rigged ketch. Having owned neither ketch nor cutter before, I was skeptical of what to expect performance-wise...at first. Now, I wouldn't only anything but for cruising.

In heavy weather (50+ knots, 16-18ft seas), I can (and have) really keep to boat settled down and in control by going jib and jigger. If things get really nasty, I can go with the mizzen and storm staysail, or the mizzen alone. That's just something you can't do with a sloop...although that is not to say sloops are less safe or less capable in a storm.

Smaller sails are easier to man handle prior to furling and in the past ketch rigs made sense for that reason but these days not so much. A sloop with a double headsail rig gives you all the capabilities you need to handle any weather. The ketch causes a compromise in the design that effects both the interior as well as the exterior plus the added costs and complexities. Dashew's ketchs were unique in that his rear masts were very tall and he could put up a variety of sails including a second spinaker flown off the ketch rig and his boats would really fly off the wind. It's much harder to justify a ketch rig these days from a purely practical point but if you like it then no one should be telling you how to spend your money. Personally after viewing my first Amel well over 30 years ago I've always had a soft spot for the thinking that went behind them. I think they only build 1 or so of the new 55 each month so they have a very small market niche.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

I'll try to explain, but the words will fall on deaf ears...

Primarily, you call anything that isn't a pizza-boat outdated. If a particular manufacturer does not produce a number of units that is satisfactory to you, you summarily write them off as a non-entity. Further, it would seem, if a particular manufacturer has an insufficient number of photographs available, they, too, are invalidated. Your comparisons are myopic and heavily biased to the type of sailing you do, not what is being discussed or debated. Lastly, you give no real credible arguments for all of your euro-design pandering - other than stating numerous times that these mass production designs are fueled by popular demand - not seaworthy or time-tested practical matters.
.....

This is your explanation? and you find my reasoning laughable?

Yes, there is some builders that make a brand and a yacht and they disappear in oblivion because their product is not attractive regarding the concurrence to the same market. Sometimes the sites remain for years without any yacht being sold.

In what regards Kraken66, the boat you posted, a Hong kong brand with a not well known NZ designer, that opened doors in 2015, I had never heard about them. They have begun with an old designed very conservative boat, a 66ft boat and they propose two more boats, with a more modern hull design, a 50ft and a 58ft yacht. Regarding the two last yacht none have been built simply because on their site, on the gallery page, there are not any photos of a 58 or a 50 ft boat and the first thing a brand does when they have a new boat is to put there photos.

The demand of any boat, on the different market sectors is fueled for demand and contrary to what you seem to think nobody is going to speed millions on a yacht without knowing what type of yacht they want or without checking carefully the several options on the same market segment.

Not any of the boats that I posted regarding the Kraken, boats that are some of the market competition to it, are mass produced, even if they are designed by more credible NA and have more modern hull options and interiors, even if as I had said, the Kraken 50 and 58 are much less outdated than the 66ft.

In fact Kraken is trying to have a go to that market (middle weight luxury cruisers) not doing expensive yachts but cheaper ones (made in Hong kong) with less evolved technical solutions.

Based on what I know of the yacht market I would say that they are going to disappear from the market rapidly. The niche of luxury market being more conservative than others is not so conservative to the point of sustaining a brand that makes clearly outdated boats (that is why the other designs are less conservative). Much more credible brands with a name and a tradition had tried to survive on that market with outdated designs and they failed.

It was the case with Westerly and now the case with Rustler that is trying to survive purposing more modern hulls and better sailing yachts. I really hope they can make it. Just look at their new designs:

Here the Rustler 57:


Also regarding interiors the conservative quality taste of Rustler has nothing to do with the retro posh luck of the Kraken 66 even I admit taste can varie (or lack of it):
Here the smaller Rustler 44:



The Kraken 66:








In what regards what you call pizza-boats how can middle weight luxury boats be called pizza-boats? Do you consider pizza boats any of the boats I posted as market competition to the Kraken, the Gunfleets, the CNB, the Halberg Rassy?

If so I can only say that you are....well....completely out of reality and know nothing about yacht design.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Smaller sails are easier to man handle prior to furling and in the past ketch rigs made sense for that reason but these days not so much. A sloop with a double headsail rig gives you all the capabilities you need to handle any weather. The ketch causes a compromise in the design that effects both the interior as well as the exterior plus the added costs and complexities. Dashew's ketchs were unique in that his rear masts were very tall and he could put up a variety of sails including a second spinaker flown off the ketch rig and his boats would really fly off the wind.

I have a mizzen spinnaker as well as a fisherman. Yes, downwind I can get fast. :-)

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

The Amel is a purposeful built boat, it's meant for voyaging. Not especially pretty lines and the fake teak decks and heavy rubber/plastic rube rail take some getting used to. The waterproof bulkheads are a nice safety feature and the rudder keel looks overly tough. The ketch rig is a hanger on from the past but they are reluctant to get rid of it. By and large the systems and motor are fairly easy to get to and maintain. It's a stick built boat and that's the still the finest and most expensive way to build higher end boats. Often refered to as an old man's boat the very latest design is certainly a big step up from the ones a few years ago.
Beneteau is a high production boat and features the latest designs both inside and out. It's more of an all purpose boat and probably appeals to a very wide audience. Not really a voyaging boat but with lots of mods you could make it one. Doesn't have the safety features of the Amel and its built with full liners so the ease of maintenance wont be equal but it will be faster in all most all conditions but maybe not as comfortable at sea.
Of course new boat to new boat there is a big price difference with the Amel being much more expensive. If I were coastal cruising or hanging out in the Med or Caribbean I'd probably go with the Beneteau, it's huge cockpit and open interior is perfect for get together and it's a good sailor even in the lighter winds. If I was going to voyage and crossing oceans, maybe sail around the world I'd take the Amel, assuming I could write the check for the latest model.

The new Amel have not an outdated hull design and there is a huge evolution from the older Amels to the new ones. Older Amels, like any other old boats are a completely different story in what regards hull design and it was about the old ones I was talking about. The new one is a fine sailing boat, specially downwind and on a beam reach and I don't think that it is needed an effort to like the boat, if that is the type of boat one is interested in.

I agree, a completely different boat than the Oceanis, specially in what regards the built quality and price. Also in what regards the Oceanis to be a light weigh boat versus a middle weight one. The Oceanis is what is called by the definitions of the European boat of the year award a family boat while the Amel is a luxury cruiser.

In what regards purpose I don't no if I agree but certainly they are different in what regards quality and price. It seems that the Amel is much more close to other midle weight luxury cruisers like the CBN or the Halberg Rassy than from true boats designed with voyage as purpose, like the Allures, the Garcia or the Boreal. Sure, it is a bluewater boat as any sailboat of that size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgyUTORwKIc

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by Polux

If so I can only say that you are....well....completely out of reality and know nothing about yacht design.

Hahaha! If you only you knew a little more about my background and education. I keep forgetting that you are the sole authority on what is or is not acceptable for the market. You must have your hands full sorting out all of the designs that can be designated "modern", or the builders such a Baltic, Campers and Nicholson, Perini Navi, Gunboat, etc. that frequently pen designs (and sell boats based on those drawings) well ahead of any production. I'll bet the motor yacht community is glad that you only control the feasibility and suitability of yachts for the sailing market.

You seem to want to argue the same stale point and, up until now, I have been happy to engage you. However, I tire of your rhetoric. This will be by last reply to your opinions and matters of taste.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Chines have been around a long long time, plywood boats done with stich and glue, aluminum and steel boats for all most ever and I never had anyone remark on how the chines were so powerful that they could stop the boat from heeling further than the chine. I've sailed on modern chine boats and if I really pay attention I am able to notice a slight feeling of resistance when the boat heels to the chine but it's no where near to the extremes that are being discussed here. I can tell you that these wide cruisers with chines are in fact slow in lighter air, there is just too much wetted surface to overcome in real light air. We have friends with a new Beneteau much longer than us and in the light stuff we leave them behind, they pay us back when the breeze comes up though.

There are many types of chines and the first ones were not a result of a purposely built hull with chines but resulted inevitably from the construction method.

I believe everybody knows that chines increase stability at the cost of drag . The matter, in what regards boat design, is to transform that trade off on a favorable one.

On cruising boats they are used as the famous training wheels that somebody called them. And yes if well designed they increase noticeably the stability when the boat heels to that point and helps to keep it there.

They don't do miracles but it is necessary a bigger effort to take the boat over the chine. That helps in what regards to sail the boat on autopilot on a grove without having it make S on the gusts.

There are well designed sailboats and less well designed. If you had sailed on a well designed cruising boats with chines you would have noticed clearly the easiness they sail on a grove (on the chine) and the extra effort to put it sailing over the chine. I agree that on some designs they are so soft that it makes practically no difference.











"Her chines offered a noticeable increase in form stability particularly when the wind picked up and we were trying to see how close she would point with the Code-0 sheeted hard in."
http://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/boats/...-review-tests/

One of the crew, a prospective new owner, asked why the need for a hard chine and dual rudder? Not a dumb question: the hard chine is for stability and as we sailed to windward the boat healed to about 15 degrees, locked in and literally sat on that chine. The starboard rudder was then deep in the water as designed and easy as could be to steer with fingertips alone.
http://www.bwsailing.com/bw/boat-rev...au-oceanis-38/

At one point a 7-knot “gust” accelerated the Oceanis 38 to 3.8 knots at a 45-degree wind angle—almost in an instant. With just under 15,000lb of displacement, it doesn’t take much for this boat to pick up its skirts and go. Having sailed the Oceanis 45 and 48, both of which have similar hull shapes, I also know that when things get a bit more brisk the energy that would otherwise go into heeling is transformed into forward momentum with this kind of hull form. Basically the boats just heel slightly, sit on that hard chine, find their groove and take off.
http://www.sailmagazine.com/boat-rev...au-oceanis-38/

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

Hahaha! If you only you knew a little more about my background and education. I keep forgetting that you are the sole authority on what is or is not acceptable for the market. You must have your hands full sorting out all of the designs that can be designated "modern", or the builders such a Baltic, Campers and Nicholson, Perini Navi, Gunboat, etc. that frequently pen designs (and sell boats based on those drawings) well ahead of any production. I'll bet the motor yacht community is glad that you only control the feasibility and suitability of yachts for the sailing market.

You seem to want to argue the same stale point and, up until now, I have been happy to engage you. However, I tire of your rhetoric. This will be by last reply to your opinions and matters of taste.

How does this not make sense? You keep saying Polux is arrogant and the only one that likes modern designs, but most every major yard and designer produces modern designed underbody boats. Go to a boat show anywhere.... what do you see? Everyone else is stupid except you about what a cruising boat should be? Seems you're the one with too much arrogance.


Polux- People ask in every thread for you to resize your images. It takes way too long to open a page because of the huge amount of data necessary to view the photos.

Matt

[Polux]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Polux- People ask in every thread for you to resize your images. It takes way too long to open a page because of the huge amount of data necessary to view the photos.
Matt

Matt, the way I do it I cannot resize them, otherwise it would take a lot of work.
When that was said the first time most said they have no problems since the images will resize themselves. Maybe the memory of your hardware is small. Try to wait a bit till scroll down the page giving time for the images to resize automatically. I am on an old computer with low memory and I have no problems.

But I will try not to choice the real big ones.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

How does this not make sense? You keep saying Polux is arrogant and the only one that likes modern designs, but most every major yard and designer produces modern designed underbody boats. Go to a boat show anywhere.... what do you see? Everyone else is stupid except you about what a cruising boat should be? Seems you're the one with too much arrogance.


Polux- People ask in every thread for you to resize your images. It takes way too long to open a page because of the huge amount of data necessary to view the photos.

Matt

I've not directly called anyone arrogant. I also appreciate that there are many people who prefer "en vogue" designs (I'll use that term instead of "modern") and have not made the accusation, as you suggest, that Polux is the only one who appreciates what he refers to as modern.

My argument has been, and will continue to be, the suitability of some designs as bluewater cruisers. The Jeanneau and Beneteau, which were the main subjects of the OP, have their purpose, but crossing oceans and truly cruising in open water is something they may not be particularly well suited for.

My opinion of modern is also quite different from Polux's (and apparently yours as well) and it's my point of view is that a boat can be modern without following the trend of carrying full beam aft, have open transom, and make use of flat-bottomed chined hulls with twin rudders - some of which may turn out to be a passing fad anyway.

Call me arrogant, if you like. My assessment of you might be a little less flattering.

[four winds]

Polux, on the image size issue.... It's not the processor or memory of one's device that is at fault. Rather it is the data connection speed that results in slow loading.

For example on my phone, before using the gigs available at the fast data rate things load quickly. After my data rate is throttled back the threads load slowly when containing several large images.

Not suggesting any changes to your methods, just noting the cause of the issue.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

...
My opinion of modern is also quite different from Polux's (and apparently yours as well) and it's my point of view is that a boat can be modern without following the trend of carrying full beam aft, have open transom, and make use of flat-bottomed chined hulls with twin rudders - some of which may turn out to be a passing fad anyway.
..

It is not a trend, it is the state of the art in what regards hull design efficiency regards sailing and I am not talking about any particular type of boat but about well designed contemporary yachts. That is why race boats are like that too: efficiency is not a trend.

Sure, in the future boats will be different, who knows what evolution will happen in regarding sail efficiency and hull development? Probably foils will be part of the process and surely the hulls will different but I doubt the main market cruising boat will be less beamier, at least considerably.

If you want, even today there are narrow modern cruisers available. They are not main market simply for the reason that for being as fast and have the same stability, they have to be longer. For having the same interior space, they have to be longer. And for the same space, stability and performance a longer narrow yacht is much more expensive than a smaller beamy boat that offer about the same.

I love particularly this one and I am waiting for a couple of years that someone has enough money to buy one instead of a smaller beamier boat with identical performance.



I cannot wait to see it on the water sailing.and by the way it is a modern performance cruiser too.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by four winds

Polux, on the image size issue.... It's not the processor or memory of one's device that is at fault. Rather it is the data connection speed that results in slow loading.

For example on my phone, before using the gigs available at the fast data rate things load quickly. After my data rate is throttled back the threads load slowly when containing several large images.

Not suggesting any changes to your methods, just noting the cause of the issue.

I will try to refrain to post large images but it is a pity since sometimes there is no other option and some are beautiful.

[four winds]

Originally Posted by Polux

I will try to refrain to post large images but it is a pity since sometimes there is no other option and some are beautiful.

It was not my intention to encourage restraint on your picture postings. Very much enjoy the pictures.

I know you prefer to embed the pic link in the text so it shows in context of what you write. Doing this it must load the full image.

If the pics are posted as attachments then only a thumbnail loads, and is faster on less bandwidth. But of course shows up at the bottom of the post, out of context. Doesn't work well for many images being referenced throughout a text.

Your methods work well for your needs, and is fine by me.