Beneteau oceanis 55

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

All these so called modern designs will often look rather dated within a few years time, something to think about when you buy a sailboat since it's a huge investment and you might wanna sell the boat further down the line.

You have an Amel and are criticizing other boats for a dated look

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

You have an Amel and are criticizing other boats for a dated look

Yes, the twin-ruddered, flat bottomed, and chined pizza boats will give way to the next trend, much like previous trends gave way to today's designs.

The design of the Super Miramu is lasting and will continue to stand the test of time - unlike pretty much anything being put out by the euro-crowd.

By the way, what do you sail? I'd guess a Jeanneau.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

Yes, the twin-ruddered, flat bottomed, and chined pizza boats will give way to the next trend, much like previous trends gave way to today's designs.

The design of the Super Miramu is lasting and will continue to stand the test of time - unlike pretty much anything being put out by the euro-crowd.

By the way, what do you sail? I'd guess a Jeanneau.

You do know that the designer of the Amels was blind? They've been stuck in the 70's for design for 40 years...Once he passed away, the company could finally get Jean Berret & Olivier Racoupeau to design something pretty.


Matt

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

You do know that the designer of the Amels was blind? They've been stuck in the 70's for design for 40 years...Once he passed away, the company could finally get Jean Berret & Olivier to design something pretty.





Matt

If he was blind, he was genius.

Phillippe Briand, Berret Racoupeau, Judel/Vrolijk et al could certainly benefit from taking a page from a blind man's book.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

This topic has gotten WAAAAY off topic. It seems to have become, "Polux and his taste vs. everyone else"; also known as, "I'm right, you're wrong". I suspect it is because the boat he, himself, owns is an Italian look-alike to the "modern" boats mentioned.

If it helps... I love Nauticats...

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

Yes, the twin-ruddered, flat bottomed, and chined pizza boats will give way to the next trend, much like previous trends gave way to today's designs.

The design of the Super Miramu is lasting and will continue to stand the test of time - unlike pretty much anything being put out by the euro-crowd.

By the way, what do you sail? I'd guess a Jeanneau.

I've been around many super maramus, I have several friends that own them, I've sailed them and I very much respect them regarding what they are designed to do BUT when a amel owner calls someone elses view bias I find it laughable. Amels are great boats, but often amel owners think they have the greatest boats ever produced, its almost a cult.... lol. And regarding them not dating....they have. They are not perfect, they weren't from new.

There's room for all sorts of boats whether it be an Amel or a Beneteau 55, personally for me, give me the performance and liveaboard comfort of a modern design, they can carry enough, can go most places and you have a cool funky modern home when you get there! The days of me living in a cave are soooo gone.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

This is pretty safe explanatory: there is one lonely new manufacturer aiming at "conservative" tastes which shows how much of a niche market it represents, and please stop trying to justify your liking for it with these absurd "before was safer and better"

If you find safety and arguments for safety absurd that's entirely on you dude. I've also made visual arguments but that apparently went straight over your head, or you simply edited that part out. Posted two of them at page 6 post #85.

Originally Posted by funjohnson

You have an Amel and are criticizing other boats for a dated look

I don't know if you do context, I was referring to the hull, keel and rudder. If you wanna talk about other parts of the exterior in visual terms we could do that, there sure are prettier boats out there than the Amel in that regard.

I did post two sailboats at page 6 post #85 to give an example of what a timeless (which in fact is a modern one in the sense that it never goes out of style) sailboat looks like. As you may have noticed I did not post a picture of the Amel.

Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey

If he was blind, he was genius.

Phillippe Briand, Berret Racoupeau, Judel/Vrolijk et al could certainly benefit from taking a page from a blind man's book.

Yes he sure was a genius.

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

If you find safety and arguments for safety absurd that's entirely on you dude. I've also made visual arguments but that apparently went straight over your head, or you simply edited that part out. Posted two of them at page 6 post #85.

I only find your vision of safety absurd, so indeed i will not consider them.

@Raven Odyssey For the sake of healthy arguments, let's keep this argument impersonal, will you? (Aka not not involve what anyone does out of this thread)

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

I've had great experience with my Amel in adverse conditions and the Kraken shares similar design philosophy and that's something I like, it was interesting to see that a new manufacturer went that way. I very much doubt they did so out of ignorance in terms of other available designs and solutions.

Riding the chine bouncing back and forth can cause great concern and increase stress for a crew and imo not desirable when cruising, you shouldn't have to constantly work the boat and do trimming etc.

Not really:



Both hulls are clearly dated in therms of design but the Kraken has a much bigger influence of IOR design, with that big beam at the middle before coming to a narrow transom.

Regarding the need of constant trimming it is just the opposite. Those hulls with chines and big transoms are more forgiving to trimming. They were developed for that, meaning to keep the boat on track on autopilot in extreme conditions with gusts without the need of the skipper to come outside for trimming.

The chines does just that, prevents the boat to go over it when the wind increases in gusts while on a boat with a rounded hull with a gust you would have a change of course since before the pilot could react the boat would have changed slightly the course.

We should be discussing modern hulls on a thread about someone that wants to buy a contemporary boat with a specific type of hull, similar to many that are on the market today.

On another thread a lucky member announced that he had bought a Dufour 512, a lovely design with a hull design similar to the Oceanis 55. I hope he can give us some impressions regarding how is boat sails in comparison with older designs he probably owned. This boat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm0_Kqkmj_A

[robert sailor]

The Amel is a purposeful built boat, it's meant for voyaging. Not especially pretty lines and the fake teak decks and heavy rubber/plastic rube rail take some getting used to. The waterproof bulkheads are a nice safety feature and the rudder keel looks overly tough. The ketch rig is a hanger on from the past but they are reluctant to get rid of it. By and large the systems and motor are fairly easy to get to and maintain. It's a stick built boat and that's the still the finest and most expensive way to build higher end boats. Often refered to as an old man's boat the very latest design is certainly a big step up from the ones a few years ago.
Beneteau is a high production boat and features the latest designs both inside and out. It's more of an all purpose boat and probably appeals to a very wide audience. Not really a voyaging boat but with lots of mods you could make it one. Doesn't have the safety features of the Amel and its built with full liners so the ease of maintenance wont be equal but it will be faster in all most all conditions but maybe not as comfortable at sea.
Of course new boat to new boat there is a big price difference with the Amel being much more expensive. If I were coastal cruising or hanging out in the Med or Caribbean I'd probably go with the Beneteau, it's huge cockpit and open interior is perfect for get together and it's a good sailor even in the lighter winds. If I was going to voyage and crossing oceans, maybe sail around the world I'd take the Amel, assuming I could write the check for the latest model.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by weavis

If it helps... I love Nauticats...

Thank you. Mine is a well-proven bluewater boat with a good turn of speed.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Not really:



Both hulls are clearly dated in therms of design but the Kraken has a much bigger influence of IOR design, with that big beam at the middle before coming to a narrow transom.

Regarding the need of constant trimming it is just the opposite. Those hulls with chines and big transoms are more forgiving to trimming. They were developed for that, meaning to keep the boat on track on autopilot in extreme conditions with gusts without the need of the skipper to come outside for trimming.

The chines does just that, prevents the boat to go over it when the wind increases in gusts while on a boat with a rounded hull with a gust you would have a change of course since before the pilot could react the boat would have changed slightly the course.

We should be discussing modern hulls on a thread about someone that wants to buy a contemporary boat with a specific type of hull, similar to many that are on the market today.

On another thread a lucky member announced that he had bought a Dufour 512, a lovely design with a hull design similar to the Oceanis 55. I hope he can give us some impressions regarding how is boat sails in comparison with older designs he probably owned. This boat:

Chines have been around a long long time, plywood boats done with stich and glue, aluminum and steel boats for all most ever and I never had anyone remark on how the chines were so powerful that they could stop the boat from heeling further than the chine. I've sailed on modern chine boats and if I really pay attention I am able to notice a slight feeling of resistance when the boat heels to the chine but it's no where near to the extremes that are being discussed here. I can tell you that these wide cruisers with chines are in fact slow in lighter air, there is just too much wetted surface to overcome in real light air. We have friends with a new Beneteau much longer than us and in the light stuff we leave them behind, they pay us back when the breeze comes up though.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by Polux

Both hulls are clearly dated in therms of design but the Kraken has a much bigger influence of IOR design, with that big beam at the middle before coming to a narrow transom.

Huh? I think you got a little mixed up here. The Amel has, clearly, exaggerated proportions typical of the IOR era. Of course, below the waterline is another story altogether.

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

I only find your vision of safety absurd, so indeed i will not consider them.

If you find the objection to large open cockpits and large open spacious interiors with sharp edges on blue water cruisers absurd, on the basis of not being safe, well again, that's entirely on you and you are free to consider them as a non safety issue.

Originally Posted by Polux

Not really:

Yes really, there's not many blue water sailboats around with a fully encapsulated keel and with a fully protected skeg hung rudder, there for safety, hence my comment on similar philosophy. Maybe the word similar approach would have made it clearer.

Originally Posted by robert sailor

The*ketch*rig is a hanger on from the past but they are reluctant to get rid of it.

Ketch rig is great for a cruising couple makes the sails easier to handle and also comes in handy should the electronic winches ever fail and you have to handle everything manually. Smaller sails are less heavy and cumbersome.

Amel Santorin could be had as a sloop version back in the day, but it's a smaller boat.

Originally Posted by robert sailor

If I was going to voyage and crossing oceans, maybe sail around the world I'd take the Amel, assuming I could write the check for the latest model.

Pick the 54 instead, a much prettier boat, at least on the inside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIu5BRBS9vo

Just look at those round harmonies organic shapes in the interior, what a beautiful flow it has, oh and pay attention to those beautiful portholes. On the new one they simply decided to take a ruler to the interior and draw straight lines all over the place also known as.. modern design. The old boat has a very inviting and warm interior, a home away from home.

[Raven Odyssey]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

Ketch rig is great for a cruising couple makes the sails easier to handle and also comes in handy should the electronic winches ever fail and you have to handle everything manually. Smaller sails are less heavy and cumbersome.

Amel Santorin could be had as a sloop version back in the day, but it's a smaller boat.

My boat is a staysail rigged ketch. Having owned neither ketch nor cutter before, I was skeptical of what to expect performance-wise...at first. Now, I wouldn't only anything but for cruising.

In heavy weather (50+ knots, 16-18ft seas), I can (and have) really keep to boat settled down and in control by going jib and jigger. If things get really nasty, I can go with the mizzen and storm staysail, or the mizzen alone. That's just something you can't do with a sloop...although that is not to say sloops are less safe or less capable in a storm.