Arbitrage opportunities

[Chotu]

I don’t think it’ll work.

You’re looking at buying used boats. You’ll have a huge punch list to get through ($$$$) to make the boat safe and up to your standards for an ocean crossing. Let’s face it, most boats up for sale, especially abandoned in some remote area, are going to need a fair amount of work.

The money (and more importantly time) you put in to get the boat ready to safely cross oceans is going to make it VERY painful to sell upon arrival just to start fixing up another boat.

It takes a billion hours to get a boat right and all set up for you.

You’d be much better off with a buy and hold. Sure, get a cheap, neglected boat abandoned far away if you want. Probably could find an HR like you want. But invest that time and money into YOUR boat, not someone else’s.

I believe your model works out to doing free repairs and deliveries for the privilege of sailing. Doing actual paid deliveries is a better use of your time.

Note: you won’t be designing anything for Fortune 500 companies while doing this. You won’t have the bandwidth. Don’t know if you looked into that part

[goodlime]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Good luck and if we do ever meet, can I go through customs first, only you might be there much longer than me .

I think you need to look at the bottle necks which are the Indian Ocean with no easy passage back to Europe or the US for those boats which have crossed the Pacific. So yachts for sale in the S Pacific or Aisa.

The other location is the Caribbean for boats that have crossed to the carib and are now stuck in central america.

Finally how about fresh water yachts in the Canadian Great Lakes being moved to Europe. You need European models from the big French, German and Scandinavian manufacturers really.

You could also investigate Dutch and German yachts to the med, they seem to store inside during the winter and seem higher quality. Whether a Northern European yacht makes a good boat for the med is a different question though but you are only interested in moving and selling them.

Have you done any big trips btw?

Pete

Thanks for your insights Pete. On the merits of your reply alone I will gladly let you ahead of me in the customs line haha!
Asia may be a good place to start when I finally make it out there for some digital nomading. I was supposed to be there now... thanks 2020. Best year ever Although, when window shopping on YachtWorld, a lot of the boats I saw in Asia seemed unrealistically over market value. I'll have to take a closer look. Guatemala was another suggestion mvweebles made that I'd like to take a closer look at. From Asia, getting it back is the challenge. It's a long (and often treacherous) way around the Cape of Good Hope. It's a toss whether that is a better option than the Gulf of Aden and the Suez Canal. Cap'n Fatty's accounts of the Suez Canal transit are both as entertaining as they are cautionary!

In terms of buying a quality boat, like you say, in Northern Europe and Northern U.S./Canada it is standard practice for the boat to live indoors 6 months out of the year. Which will result in a far newer condition boat than one that has been roasting in the Mediterranean or Caribbean sun year round.
As far as big trips go, I have made the Atlantic crossing 4 times, but as a paying passenger and never on anything less than 120,000 tonnes. A ship of that size is a great way to observe the fury of a winter storm in the mid Atlantic. 40 foot swells crashing against your cabin window 4 decks above the waterline is a sobering experience to say the least. For my boat, I imagine I will have to make some compromises when it comes to size of the casino and how may omelette stations I'll be able to fit on the buffet line!
I am currently looking for a crewing opportunity to do an Atlantic crossing this winter. I'm speaking with one couple about crewing for them from Gibraltar to the Eastern Caribbean aboard their HR 45. I wouldn't be so bold as to embark upon a major ocean crossing in my own boat without first gaining some serious miles in the relative protection of the Med.

[goodlime]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I don’t think it’ll work.

You’re looking at buying used boats. You’ll have a huge punch list to get through ($$$$) to make the boat safe and up to your standards for an ocean crossing. Let’s face it, most boats up for sale, especially abandoned in some remote area, are going to need a fair amount of work.

The money (and more importantly time) you put in to get the boat ready to safely cross oceans is going to make it VERY painful to sell upon arrival just to start fixing up another boat.

It takes a billion hours to get a boat right and all set up for you.

You’d be much better off with a buy and hold. Sure, get a cheap, neglected boat abandoned far away if you want. Probably could find an HR like you want. But invest that time and money into YOUR boat, not someone else’s.

I believe your model works out to doing free repairs and deliveries for the privilege of sailing. Doing actual paid deliveries is a better use of your time.

Note: you won’t be designing anything for Fortune 500 companies while doing this. You won’t have the bandwidth. Don’t know if you looked into that part

I agree with your points in principle and for the vast number of cases. I would be searching for those rare opportunities popping up periodically whereby someone has already done most of the work for me and by whatever twist of fate, has found them needing to offload the boat and it's associated ongoing costs pronto. Yes, these opportunities are rare, needle in a haystack rare, but they do exist. The more motivated the seller, the lower you can negotiate. I happen to get a lot of satisfaction out of finding these deals. In line with what you are saying, that is the only way the model would work. People say "boats are a big hole in the water into which you throw money" for a reason! The biggest challenge is finding these opportunities in the first place and closing the deal before any of the other people, who are looking for the same, beat you to it!


You are correct about bandwidth... for now. But technology is moving fast. S/V Delos are currently trialing a lower-cost sat dome solution that claims to make high(er)-speed internet available to the more budget conscious/capable cruiser. And even more exciting is that we are mere months away from Starlink launching in a much broader sense. It's currently in Beta, and the feedback on performance so far is even more impressive than their initial claims. Elon has already alluded to mobile versions being in the pipeline, with no significant hurdles in terms of technology. The nature of the dish technology means there are no moving part in the transceiver array. Point it roughly towards the sky, plug it in, and it just works. Unlike the current bulky domes we see on high-end yachts today. Total game changer for me and every other intrepid tech-nerd adventurer!!!

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by goodlime

I am currently looking for a crewing opportunity to do an Atlantic crossing this winter. I'm speaking with one couple about crewing for them from Gibraltar to the Eastern Caribbean aboard their HR 45. I wouldn't be so bold as to embark upon a major ocean crossing in my own boat without first gaining some serious miles in the relative protection of the Med.

If you're open to a powerboat, someone on TrawlerForum asked about crew eastbound from somewhere in Europe to Grenada via Canaries/Cape Verdes. Not a lot of details except 70-foot Hatteras

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...rew-54420.html

Peter

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by goodlime

Outside the USA and Canada, almost the entire world uses 240v/50hz.

have you been to Asia?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

If you're open to a powerboat, someone on TrawlerForum asked about crew eastbound from somewhere in Europe to Grenada via Canaries/Cape Verdes. Not a lot of details except 70-foot Hatteras

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...rew-54420.html

Peter

Think this boat features in the latest Ryan and Sophie YT video published yesterday. They decided the trip wasn't for them aboard that 70ft MY. Heart breaking because after arrival in the Caribbean they could have been dropped off on their yacht in the ABCs, so a good fit for them.

They didn't disclose all the reasons but the fuel requirements didn't seem to add up.


Pete

[goodlime]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

have you been to Asia?

Yes I have. I've spent a couple of two week stints in the Maldives, technically that's Asia, and it was delightful. If it wasn't for COVID, I'd be a digital nomad in Thailand right now! What's your point?

Asia is mostly 240V, with exceptions such as Japan and Madagascar which are 120V.

I have read that base housing on U.S. military installations has 120V and U.S. style outlets. But in countries where 240V is used, the frequency is 50Hz vs 60Hz, which is the norm at 120V. Apparently it causes 120V digital clocks to run slow on 50Hz.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by goodlime

I agree with your points in principle and for the vast number of cases. I would be searching for those rare opportunities popping up periodically whereby someone has already done most of the work for me and by whatever twist of fate, has found them needing to offload the boat and it's associated ongoing costs pronto. Yes, these opportunities are rare, needle in a haystack rare, but they do exist. The more motivated the seller, the lower you can negotiate. I happen to get a lot of satisfaction out of finding these deals. In line with what you are saying, that is the only way the model would work. People say "boats are a big hole in the water into which you throw money" for a reason! The biggest challenge is finding these opportunities in the first place and closing the deal before any of the other people, who are looking for the same, beat you to it!

Everyone is looking for that needle in the haystack. No one is looking for a rotted out piece of junk in a far off destination.

As a newbie to the cruising boat world, odds are you buy a lemon because you don't know what you are looking for. Most boats left to rot in graveyard destinations have some issues to start with and with no oversight, quickly degrade even further.

If you had 20yrs as a boat surveyor, finding that needle in a haystack might be viable because you would have the experience to tell the difference before you get too deep. If you knew what you were doing, you would probably already be out there doing it and not asking the forum if it can be done.

Sorry if this sounds negative but the idea that you can make money flipping boats with no experience is crazy.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by goodlime

Yes I have. I've spent a couple of two week stints in the Maldives, technically that's Asia, and it was delightful. If it wasn't for COVID, I'd be a digital nomad in Thailand right now! What's your point?

Asia is mostly 240V, with exceptions such as Japan and Madagascar which are 120V.

I have read that base housing on U.S. military installations has 120V and U.S. style outlets. But in countries where 240V is used, the frequency is 50Hz vs 60Hz, which is the norm at 120V. Apparently it causes 120V digital clocks to run slow on 50Hz.

Me too. Love it. I want to learn to run a long tail boat in Thailand

But my point was its pretty spotty 240 vs 110. Taiwan, Japan, Thailand (parts at least) and a few other places are 110, some US style outlets or the two round pin style, others 240. Idk if its really a big deal though.

On the arbitrage topic, I think you'd be doing all your sailing upwind. Sailing from destinations back to starting points.

[goodlime]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Everyone is looking for that needle in the haystack. No one is looking for a rotted out piece of junk in a far off destination.

As a newbie to the cruising boat world, odds are you buy a lemon because you don't know what you are looking for. Most boats left to rot in graveyard destinations have some issues to start with and with no oversight, quickly degrade even further.

If you had 20yrs as a boat surveyor, finding that needle in a haystack might be viable because you would have the experience to tell the difference before you get too deep. If you knew what you were doing, you would probably already be out there doing it and not asking the forum if it can be done.

Sorry if this sounds negative but the idea that you can make money flipping boats with no experience is crazy.

I appreciate the concern, but there are outliers in this world, and I would consider myself one of them. If I had listened to all the people that told me I was crazy, or it couldn't be done, I would have never started my first business at 13 years old, I would never have bought my first overseas property at age 20, and I would never have moved from Europe to California at age 21. I have made a career out of proving the naysayers wrong.

I believe anyone can do anything they set their mind to. With enough determination, tenacity, a good amount of smarts and honest, hard work, anything is possible! That even includes selling a sailboat for more than one paid for it.

[goboatingnow]

There are some opporrtunites that may present itself to UK estabished persons post Brexit as they would be able to purchase VAT not paid boats in Europe and avail of the TIR provisions to avoid paying VAT for 18 months ( and more ). This allows a VAT not paid boat to be brought to the USA , giving it an advantage over a similarly boat that is VAT paid

VAT has nothing to do with boat registration , its a functional of the tax domicile of the beneficial owner. For example a EU established person cannot own a boat in the EU that is not VAT paid ( under normal circumstances ) irrespective of the flag of the boat

[Afrinus]

I am doing this right now.
Buying a 47' proven blue water boat in South Africa and sailing it back to the US.
This is not a way for me to make money, but to get my own new boat.
New in this case is four years since first launch.

To get the same value ( my perception of that term- different for everyone I'm sure), I have to go to a 2000 vintage boat (can't finance anything older than that), and then still end up with 100k difference.
And that is compared to the all-in cost (import duty, sales tax here, delivery cost, inflated insurance to cover the delivery, replacing the Victron Multiplus with a US version)

The market size, currency exchange and value prop of boats in RSA definitely makes for a positive - a pretty big one for me.

This might not hold up for cats though - no reason other for that statement than simply I just don't know.

Oh, I mention cats just because SA is well known as a cat building country.

The monohull I'm looking at was build in SA as well.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by goodlime

I know I could buy an ex-charter boat in Croatia, for example, which is not VAT paid. I would only have to pay VAT on that boat if I was going to keep it (as a private owner) in the EU. If I flagged said boat with a Red Ensign, but never entered British waters, AND took the boat out of the EU for enough of the year as would be required by tax law, I'd never have to pay any VAT on it.

Not withstanding what Goboatingnow has said above, I think you are going to come unstuck. Look at the lengths Berthon go to with a customs area fenced off for vessels that are tax free. A country isn't going allow you to turn up, flog a yacht and disappear over the horizon.

https://www.berthoninternational.com...oms-warehouse/

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I don’t think it’ll work.

Me either..