Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by moseriw

Not apples vs. oranges but usually scrap against valuable safe boats

Which is which because now I have to reassess my Beneteau to make sure the last six years of sailing some nastiness here in Newfoundland has seen me in the extreme minority. But then some people should buy RVs and simply visit boat shows.

[ferrailleur]

Originally Posted by pskudlarski

Hello,

We are within the final stretch of dreaming, armchair preparation (fortified by decent chartering experience) and seriously searching for a boat appropriate for an early (we are in 50ties) retirement and long distance cruising.

We have pretty much defined our preferences to an around 45 foot cruiser with three cabins (either two aft cabins or CC with front and aft saloon with a side top and down cabin). we would like it to be fitted (or w will fit it with) Air conditioning, bow thruster, generator and relatively modern electronics package. It seems that our goal is available within our range of around 200k.

Now the question is that there are two distinct boat categories that fall into this class:

a) newer (less than 8 year old) production Bene Jean ..

b) and older (usually 20 or more) but well maintained Moodies, Najad, Celestials, maybe even slightly more expensive HL or Oysters ...

Of course it is comparing apple to oranges but that it must the practical choice that most people in our situation are facing. How to compare new production boat with much older more "classy" one.

Any thoughts, comments, ideas?

Excellent post. Thanks.
Most of us who are not there yet but are going to learn a lot thanks to you.

[2big2small]

Here’s my take.

If you’re just a couple when sailing longer distances then a center cockpit (CC) is great because the master stateroom is in the most comfortable position of the boat. But if you have extra people on board they all have to sleep in the very uncomfortable bow.

The drawback of many CC models is that the heads are in inconvenient positions. You want to have one right down at the companionway but in many CCs you need to walk all the way through the stern cabin or forward of the mast where it gets really bumpy and uncomfortable to undress and hang on. And a true nightmare for people susceptible to seasickness.

If you’re tall you may get in trouble in a CC galley or shower stall as well.

I always end up buying a newer Beneteau. They’re rationally designed and put together strongly enough. In the end if you’re going to live aboard you should focus a lot on the interior layout and Beneteau has some models that in my opinion beat all competition. I would need twice the budget to buy a 20 year old “classic” as you call them than a 10 year old Beneteau of the same length. If I had unlimited funds I’d go with classic, but I just get more bang with Beneteau on my budget. Yours might cut it for classic, but probably not quite after repairs and improvements.

(I have no affiliation with Beneteau.)

[Seman]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

I'm going to get flamed for this...

But here is my opinion based on chartering newer (2005+) large Bene's and owning older vessels (a 1976 C&C and now a 1983 Pearson).

The newer Bene's will sail circles around my old boats - pointing higher and sailing faster in light air and even sailing very comfortably in large seas. I love sailing new French production boats.

However, I would not want to own a 35 year old one of those Benes, while I'm quite confident owning a 35 year old Pearson. Care and maintenance of each boat aside, the construction of a 2005 Bene is simply not as robust as the construction of a 1983 Pearson.

In short, I'd rather own a higher quality boat even if that means going for an slightly older design. Of course, older boats can have myriad issues which you must look out for.

I agree with Perigrene, having owned a 1980 Passport 42 for over 20 years. Great, strong boat, no problem hitting a reef, as long as you get off again, LOL.
This boat was very easy to sail, fairly fast, but not as fast a modern light displacement yacht, forgiving and almost indestructible.
Molded keel and skeg hung rudder would be essential on any cruising mono I would consider to take off shore.

[HankOnthewater]

Apples and oranges are both good for one's health, so is any sailing boat. The responses sofar, without counting, have been even: classic vs modern. But as usual, people promote their own choices, and that is natural, as they know most about that their kind of boat. I am in the 'classic' camp.
Whatever you buy, the bankaccount will be under constant attack.
And back to fruit. How does one recognise a lemon? Yellow boat?

[Island Time O25]

Save yourself time, $ and aggravation and get an early 80s Swan 47 or some such. Best $150-200k investment you'll ever make.

[Oceanride007]

When I was doing research prior to finding my boat, I found that there are very few Bene/jenn/Bavar etc coming up for sale that are over 20 yo. Not saying they are not around just that to get them into sell able condition is too much for most to bother with. More boats than you think should be at a negative value.

All boats require maintenance, older boats that hold there value are more seaworthy, would probably justify the maintenance budget better.


The down side of older boats is the upkeep. Thats the penalty of buying older quality boat.


Its a game of snakes and ladders or sliding windows.

[Tillsbury]

It's a perennial question. You will tend to get more of the "old classic" boat crowd on this particular forum, but I would suggest that you look very carefully at the specific boats rather than make wide-ranging generalisations.

Older boats will be, on the whole, more trouble than newer ones. Of course, there are well-maintained older boats out there, and generally the higher quality ones are better maintained and will last longer than the poorer quality ones. But generalising that older boats are better is like imagining that older houses are better built than modern ones. There were plenty of poorly built houses 200 years ago -- they have fallen down or been replaced. The houses that are still here 200+ years old are the well built and well maintained ones.

We had a similar choice, for the money, between an older higher quality boat (or an even older Swan or high end boat), or a slightly newer mid-range quality boat, or a much newer lower-quality boat. But be very careful about matching quality to builder -- not all boats built by a single builder are the same. Beneteaus are notorious for this -- there are some well built ones and some very much not so. I'm sure Bavaria/Jeanneau and similar are the same.

An older boat will have much much less space than a recent (decade old or less), and so you might well find that if you were looking at a 45-footer thirty years old, there'll be pretty much the same space in a 37-footer nowadays. Your specific requirements for number of berths and cabins will determine some of this for you. We needed four cabins, for example, which would have been only possible on something in the high 50-foot range in the 1980s. Coming more recent allowed us to be looking at mid-40s, and hence far lower prices (not to mention lower maintenance costs, berthing costs etc).

We saw a number of beautiful older boats, but almost all of them had significant maintenance required. Most had been around the world or on fairly serious trips. Most really needed a significant refit unless you're happy living in a tired and tatty environment. Most had only had slight upgrades to plumbing, electrics, rig, and so on over the years, and really needed things completely pulling out and replacing. This is not a quick nor cheap exercise. On some of these boats our surveyor found significant issues with the keel, or hull structure, or bulkheads, most likely from serious groundings. On many of them the price was double the boat's actual value because the owner thought the name was worth everything.

We eventually managed to find a relatively new boat that had been underused and ignored due to illness, but since it's relatively new it doesn't take a lot to bring it up to date -- new running rigging, some new sails at some point in the future, and bits and pieces here and there. The structure and the interior are in perfect condition. Our surveyor said it's one of the best built boats he's ever inspected -- and guessed that perhaps it was a boat in which an expert was demonstrating GRP construction to his apprentices or something similar. Even deep in the bowels of the boat the layup is immaculate.

I think I've gone on long enough. In short, I don't agree that the decision is strictly old/new and that it's reasonable to be on one side or the other. When buying a boat, you really are only stuck with price and accommodation requirements. Within that look at all sorts of things, and buy the boat that you think is in the best condition.

[Capn Jimbo]

The question - actually most questions posted here - are fair. An interesting question can spur a goodly number of widely varying opinions. Now if that were the goal, enough said.

Ultimately the final arbiter is the OP; otherwise a poll might serve better, lol. I'd urge the OP to please react to those who have posted and their varying opinion. Such an interplay would serve all, not least the OP.

I'm all ears, er eyes...

[akopac]

3 thoughts.
1. Are you going to fit a wind vane. Is it so light and fast it will not function right with a wind vane. Apparent wind moves around too much...
2. Is the boat so light she is uncomfortable bashing to weather for days. Or months.
3. Wood on deck(bright work and wooden deck). We have very little wood on deck and it’s still too much to maintain :-).

[AiniA]

I think it important to consider it from a financial perspective as well as a performance one. Assuming that both boats (old and new) are similarly equipped you will get a lot more boat for $200k with an older boat.

[daletournier]

My problem with old boats is they're old. Remember a boat is more than a hull, many systems and bits.

Condition would dictate my purchase. My last boat was 32 years old when I got her BUT someone had dropped a fortune on her not long before I bought her, money I didn't have to spend.

My current boat was 15 years old when I bought her BUT hardly been used, 800hrs on the engine.

Old is OK if it's like new, most aren't.

[MJH]

I have reread your original post and think you have identified your goal as long distant offshore cruising; I had the same goal. My approach was to compare them on a spreadsheet after computing their ratios...there is no other way to SUBJECTIVELY do it. Don't concern yourself with age at this point, save that to the end. These basic design ratios are the SA/DISP, DISP/LWL, COMFORT, CAPSIZE RISK, and VHULL. There are others as well but a good place to start. Just Google sailboat design ratios to get the easy math formulas. However, be cautious with the sail area given by manufacturers as many give the sail area the boat comes with (genoas) as opposed to the 100% sail area needed for the ratio; when in doubt use the boat's I, J, P, E sail measurements and compute it manually. Beyond the ratios I had my own restrictions: no bow sprits, v-drives, sail drives, iron keels, centerboards, motor-sailors, pilot houses, wood decks, or non-fiberglass boats; these eliminated many popular boats but I'm sure you will have your restrictions as well. Tankage is also important for you achieving your goal; stainless steel, fiberglass, and simply more is best. Total original engine hours is important and beware of those overhauled as an overhaul is only as good as the man that did the job.


Good Luck.


~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by MJH

I have reread your original post and think you have identified your goal as long distant offshore cruising; I had the same goal. My approach was to compare them on a spreadsheet after computing their ratios...there is no other way to SUBJECTIVELY do it. Don't concern yourself with age at this point, save that to the end. These basic design ratios are the SA/DISP, DISP/LWL, COMFORT, CAPSIZE RISK, and VHULL. There are others as well but a good place to start. Just Google sailboat design ratios to get the easy math formulas. However, be cautious with the sail area given by manufacturers as many give the sail area the boat comes with (genoas) as opposed to the 100% sail area needed for the ratio; when in doubt use the boat's I, J, P, E sail measurements and compute it manually. Beyond the ratios I had my own restrictions: no bow sprits, v-drives, sail drives, iron keels, centerboards, motor-sailors, pilot houses, wood decks, or non-fiberglass boats; these eliminated many popular boats but I'm sure you will have your restrictions as well. Tankage is also important for you achieving your goal; stainless steel, fiberglass, and simply more is best. Total original engine hours is important and beware of those overhauled as an overhaul is only as good as the man that did the job.


Good Luck.


~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Numbers tell part of the story but not all. Eg. Comfort, does the boat roll like a pig downwind? How livable is the boat? , what's it like at anchor? Does it hobby horse? Waterlline length etc. Rest makes a huge difference to voyaging, both underway and at anchor, it's contributes to safety and enjoyment. In regards to "no other subjective way to judge" I'd argue experience has a place, sailing on and with different boats.

If we look at the numbers and another of your criteria then the Amel super maramu wouldn't make your list, iron bolt on keel and a ballast displacement ratio on the low side YET they are an exceptional go around the world yacht.

Also you will find this forum prominently US, if it was a European forum I think there would different more modern views

[Capn Jimbo]

The following is available as a free download from The Singlehanded Sailing Society at:


www.sfbaysss.org/tipsbook

“What boat to look for:


The best boat for singlehanding is the one that the skipper already owns. Owning a boat is 80% ofthe way to singlehanding so in owning a boat, any boat, the skipper has taken the first large step. There is a boat for every budget; the Cal 20 “Black Feathers” was purchased for just $1,000,but completed the Singlehanded Transpac. The first, last and only criteria for the beginner is to get a boat and get out on the water.


Unfortunately, it is virtually impossible to be a singlehander without owning a boat. No one is going to lend a boat to be taken out alone.


The worst boat is the one that will be purchased “next year.” I know of too many wannabees whospend their time searching for the perfect boat, but never get out on the water. I’ve had manyconversations with these dreamers, asking me what boat they should buy, doing months of
research on one boat, then another. It seems they can name every design and model, but they neverpull away from the dock. Until they does so, they are only pretenders. But the moment they get out
on the water, they become a singlehanded sailor.


Here is my decree: If a person misses even one season for lack of a boat, he is a dreamer, not a sailor.


When searching for a boat, the singlehander has a terrific advantage over the crewed boat owner. It seems that the most modern boats, those built within the past five years and thus the most expensive, are the least suitable for singlehanding. Older fiberglass boats, built twenty to thirty years ago, by their nature have the design features that are best suited to singlehanding. ”

Enough said. The OP should not be misled by the idea that this exerpt focused on the singlehander as the same principles apply regardless of the intended crew. It is also true that the owner/captain is highly likely to be doing most of the sailing and all of the ordering.


However, I'd like to add once again: the OP asked a common question, but to be fair really needs to participate in the discussion and opinions his question generated. The responders have done their part – now the OP needs to repay them by sharing his decision making process and reaction to the advise freely given.


Otherwise it's just another mish mosh suitable for leaning over the pushpit...