Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

[Cloroxbottle]

Originally Posted by pskudlarski

We sailed Beneteaus/Jeanneaus/Bavarias between 36 and 50, Tartan 34, Celestial 62, Bruce Roberts. Never tried center cockpit but are really drawn to that idea.

When I first started looking, i thought I would end up with a center cockpit boat. After seeing a few, I realized that - at least for me - this was one of those things that seemed better on paper. Yes, a center cockpit boat puts you closer to the bow, is drier, allows for a pass through to an aft cabin, and usually is a nice place to entertain.

The cost of this is that the distance from your feet (or backside) to the keel is greatly increased. What this means in real life...

1. In heavy seas or chop, you are going to feel a lot more (for the same reason it’s easier to move a manual windlass with a longer handle than a shorter one...in this example you are the handle of the windlass.

2. The companion way to cabin sole distance is increased, so the steps are longer and/or steeper. The chance of injury due to a misstep in bad weather or a bit too much rum is increased.

3. In general, with the boom/mast is going to put you higher above the deck and lifelines based on where the boom/mast is installed for this sort of design. Also true of some aft cockpit boats with deck salon design. Easier to go overboard? Probably.

So I passed on the center cockpit design despite it having some appealing characteristics while in the slip.

[slap]

Originally Posted by thomm225

No, the way I look at it is a long boom is an indication of the old low aspect ratio boats with lots of weather helm that usually don't point well.

The shorter boom usually indicates the newer high aspect ratio sailplan. C&C for example did this a lot but I guess in many people's book those are older boats also

The old Rhodes 41 had a mainsail foot length of 18 feet. But the J/40, the J/42 and the J/120 also have a mainsail foot length of 18 feet. The Beneteau First 40 and the J/122 have a foot length of 17.67 feet.

The IOR encouraged rigs that had large foretriangles and short boomed mainsails. So it's not that short booms were better for performance - it was a ratings gimmick. As the IOR died out, the booms lengthened and the fortriangles decreased so it's pretty common for the boom to be longer than the J measurement (mast to stem fitting), just like it was in the old days.

[CBinRI]

For me, it would be a no-brainer. I would go for the better-built boat, even if it is a few years older. I am not a huge fan of lighter-built production boats, when you can pay the same for a much more solidly built boat that is a few years older. It's a sailboat, not a car. "New" or "newer" really shouldn't be that high on the list of important factors (although lighter, cheaper production boats seem to age faster). My favorite boat that I ever owned was a forty year-old S&S Swan.

[valhalla360]

You haven't given us enough information:

What is your idea of "long distance cruising?
- Maine to the Bahamas every year mostly in the ICW?
- Circuit of the Caribbean?
- Coconut downwind run?
- Rounding the major capes?

How often will you do passages?
What percentage of time do you hang out at anchor/marina?
Are you comparing longer old boats to shorter newer boats? (the newer boats typically have more space)
What is your need for sailing performance?

Then as others have mentioned...condition is everything and there is no guarantee a classic style will be any better condition. (modern designs don't just fall apart at 20yrs)

If you are the typical dreamer...if you even buy...odds are you never make a multiday passage...if you do make a multiday passage odds are it's a rare downwind run after waiting for a good weather window. So once the boat is reasonably safe, going for a slow tank of a boat with smaller inconvenient living space isn't the best choice if 95% of the time its less comfortable (now if you can say with certainty that you will be rounding the major capes multiple times per year, getting a boat built like a tank make a lot of sense but I'll give you 1000-1 odds, you never do it.)

[moseriw]

Short n Easy. It does not matter much if the bost is brand new or old. Once you have it the work begins. But it is better to lean on a good old boat that is thourougly made and not a new "out of the box" "make money quick and forget about quality" scrap. OK it is ready to sail for say 5 years at max and then your in real trouble.

[moseriw]

btw. DO NOT OWN A BOAT IF YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO REPAIR EVERYTHiNG ON IOT

[Prairie Chicken]

I like the older, strong classics such as Oyster, Halberg Rassy, Nijad or Swan, but considering budget, definitely consider a middle aged production boat built in the early 2000s. About the late '90's, Bavaria started flooding the market with cheaply made, low-priced, plastic production boats. Soon, all the other production boat manufacturers had to cheapen their builds to keep up. Hence, Beneteau, Jeanneau and others were still pretty good quality up until about 2004. Newer than that, and their quality had significantly declined. Keep that in mind when shopping.

When shopping, look for lots of hand-holds, inside and out, and no sharp corners. You'll especially note the differences in this aspect between the older boats and the brand new ones. It is important in a sea, and something many folk don't think of until you need those hand-holds.

You expressed an interest in centre cockpits. Keep in mind that cc boats have wetter cockpits than those with an aft cockpit, although I believe its less of an issue with larger boats. The attraction of the cc boats is often the large aft owners cabin. Be aware there are also aft-cockpit boats with very large aft cabins as well.

Have fun shopping!

[JBsurfin]

I'll never give up my 83 Dickerson Ketch over a new boat. It may be a bit slower, but rides like a dream on the open seas. There is a 52 Dickerson Ketch currently on the market.. they only made 2.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by Cloroxbottle

When I first started looking, i thought I would end up with a center cockpit boat. After seeing a few, I realized that - at least for me - this was one of those things that seemed better on paper. Yes, a center cockpit boat puts you closer to the bow, is drier, allows for a pass through to an aft cabin, and usually is a nice place to entertain.

The cost of this is that the distance from your feet (or backside) to the keel is greatly increased. What this means in real life...

1. In heavy seas or chop, you are going to feel a lot more (for the same reason it’s easier to move a manual windlass with a longer handle than a shorter one...in this example you are the handle of the windlass.

2. The companion way to cabin sole distance is increased, so the steps are longer and/or steeper. The chance of injury due to a misstep in bad weather or a bit too much rum is increased.

3. In general, with the boom/mast is going to put you higher above the deck and lifelines based on where the boom/mast is installed for this sort of design. Also true of some aft cockpit boats with deck salon design. Easier to go overboard? Probably.

So I passed on the center cockpit design despite it having some appealing characteristics while in the slip.

Well, at least with my Dickerson, I find none of your findings to be true. Not all boats are built the same. I've been sailing mine for 13 yrs now.

[preventec47]

Until now I have all my life been a powerboat user/owner but have
for 30 years collected many books on Sailing and Sailboats and upon retirement would like to get more involved in sailing. I would appreciate it if folks could be a little more specific when speaking of such generalities of
higher quality and lower quality construction and more vs less required
or ignored maintenance. Certainly I understand all issues with wood but
of the composite boats and structures I am failing to see what the specifics
of lower quality translating into more upkeep or repair or seaworthyness
in harsh conditions etc.
The only thing I can vaguely relate to was the popularity of using foam sandwich construction in the hulls at one time and then there were incredible delamination issues resulting I think in a stoppage of the sandwich process.

ps. my favorite collected sailing book is the actual TextBook used at the US Naval Academy in 1912 to teach celestial navigation.

In short, except for the corrosion of metals or deterioration of fabrics and ropes due to UV I have trouble seeing how fiberglass structures age or deteriorate. With composites I can see where some of the newer resin
and fiber technologies are becoming lighter and stronger ( like epoxy and
carbon fiber ) but arent those only used for race boats ? Unless a fiberglass
structure is broken by the brute force of stress..... well it doesnt lose strength simply by aging does it ?

[MWhite]

This question is almost like asking about what kind of anchor to buy. But we sail a 1974 Olympic Adventure ketch, a Ted Brewer design, and there have been MANY times we've been grateful for her displacement and general sea kindliness. The benefit, to us, of having an older boat where we have either replaced or put hands on every single system before we left the dock is that we know the boat inside and out. If something goes wrong, it can be fixed without calling on help that is usually scarce to nonexistent. That means we can go places other boats wouldn't go. She may not be as fast and furious as some of the sleek newer boats, but she is stout and reliable and has kept us safe and comfortable. We spent much less than your budget on her and probably doubled what we spent on her putting in systems and updating what she had. Worth every penny, and still came in well under your budget of 200,000. If that had been our budget starting out, we'd still have 80 grand in the bank to cruise on. We can cruise for years on that amount. In my opinion, any boat you get, whether it's new or old, you're going to want to look at and touch every single system aboard anyhow.

[A la carte]

You have a fun chapter ahead of you.

Having personally encountered challenging weather while "long distance cruising" as you plan to do, the importance of a safe, capable, and comfortable boat under sail has become a top priority for me. Priorities quickly changed for me once I was under sail on a long cruise compared to wonderful charters where our biggest challenge was where to drop the next hook so we could BBQ. Remember, when the seas get challenging, and they will, you're stuck with your skill and whatever deck you chose to make your stand on. This can be great fun and very satisfying when you and your boat win; but, know that things get MUCH more challenging on any boat when you add a rigging or equipment malfunction to even moderate weather (This can be less fun). My strategy has become to keep my boats systems simple and have backups (Like a Monitor wind vane when my autopilot drive motor failed on a long passage).

There are many good options out there, but I've truly enjoyed my Pacific Seacraft 44; and she doesn't "pound" like many of the newer boats. To me, this is more important than the layout of the cabin berths.

[moseriw]

There are many modern designs that will do what you want safely and comfortably while being in your budget and not have 30 year old age related issues.

Not 30 year old age related issues but brand new built cheap to the limit issues.

[waeshael]

Have a look at my experience with these questions.

Welcome to Ocean Voyaging

I chose to go with a well designed well built yacht. Sailed for many years in Pacific and Atlantic.

[carlosproa]

Originally Posted by pskudlarski

Hello,

We are within the final stretch of dreaming, armchair preparation (fortified by decent chartering experience) and seriously searching for a boat appropriate for an early (we are in 50ties) retirement and long distance cruising.

We have pretty much defined our preferences to an around 45 foot cruiser with three cabins (either two aft cabins or CC with front and aft saloon with a side top and down cabin). we would like it to be fitted (or w will fit it with) Air conditioning, bow thruster, generator and relatively modern electronics package. It seems that our goal is available within our range of around 200k.

Now the question is that there are two distinct boat categories that fall into this class:

a) newer (less than 8 year old) production Bene Jean ..

b) and older (usually 20 or more) but well maintained Moodies, Najad, Celestials, maybe even slightly more expensive HL or Oysters ...

Of course it is comparing apple to oranges but that it must the practical choice that most people in our situation are facing. How to compare new production boat with much older more "classy" one.

Any thoughts, comments, ideas?

Since you are going be living in the boat, remember that most time on board is anchoring or mooring. The behavior of the boat while on the hook must be comparable to your expectations. Some fast boats are a handful when anchored and there is 20+knots of wind and waves. Also, understand where are you going to be doing your cruiising. A/C adds potentially added complications. A boat that has good air flow is preferred. Lastly, downsizing from a home me to a boat is harder than it appears. In Miami we see too many broken couples giving up into the first 3 months of cruising, mostly it appears to be from an over enthusiastic husband that oversold the concept to a wife that was not ready to drastically change her support group and comfort features