Crew Available: Crew Contributions aka $$$

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Montanan

FYI:
4. Requiring fuel, food and/or beverage as a
mandatory contribution in lieu of cash for a fishing trip or a cruise.

5. Requiring cash contribution for anything in exchange for the privilege to be aboard.

This is the pertinent part but:
- It only applies to the USA. Other countries can have other rules.
- That pesky word "requiring" makes it a gray area.

If they post an ad with costs, it looks a lot like a commercial operation, so it's smart not to mention prices in the ad. If things go bad and there is a price in the ad, expect it to be used as supporting evidence that you were running a commercial operation.

If they mention that crew typically contributes $20/day to cover their food when you talk to them...there's a lot of wiggle room as long as they don't come right out and state that it's mandatory it you are to go on the passage. Of course, if you baulk, you aren't going on the passage and therefore you don't have evidence of any impropriety.

The rules do allow for friends and family to contribute to a day on the water. So if you have several conversations and they decide you are a friend...again it moves to gray area.

Now from a practical point of view:
- Someone baulks at $20/day for food, I start to wonder if they are a problem in the making when I land at a foreign port. Am I going to be on the hook for getting them home? It's pretty easy to argue $20/day when it's going to feed the crew member isn't a for profit commercial operation.
- Now on the other hand $7,000 for a two week passage, unless it's a mega yacht and you are staying in the crews quarters and serving meals, that has all the earmarks of a commercial operation. They may be nice people, they may do a great job but it obviously looks commercial, the authorities are likely to treat it as such if it comes to their attention.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by cpisz

I understand that the US laws do not allow for any compensation at all and I understand why they swt it this way. They want to prevent people from circumnavigating the need to have a proper captain for a commercial operation. However the US laws also prevent perfectly normal behavior. Perhaps I can't afford to cruise by myself but if I take on a cruising partner then we both can afford it. The US laws prevent this perfectly normal transaction from taking place.

It's more nuanced than this.

The USCG has specifically come out and provided clarification, that friends and family can contribute to a cruise. So if you make friends with someone and decide to go on a cruise, it's perfectly legal for them to share some of the costs.

Where it gets messy is if you find some random person on the web with no real relationship and after a 1/2hr conversation, take them with the understanding they fund a significant part...well, if something bad happens, don't be at all surprised when they claim they paid for what was effectively a commercial trip...and expect the court to agree with them. (on the other hand if it's a friend of 20yrs, the court is likely to buy into the argument you honestly believed they were a friend when they contributed.)

[Capt. Mike Maurice]

Here are few tips from 50 years of doing deliveries.
1. A written contract is not worth the paper it is printed on. It is better than nothing, but the other side will expect you to abide the contract, whereas they have no intention of doing so. So... sue me is the motto.
2. If you going to be out of the U.S. you should have a contract. Keep item one above, in mind.
3. If you take "money" from anyone to crew they are paying passengers.
4. If you take "money" in lieu of covering food for the crew , they may not be a paying passenger, but if you take $1000 for $100 of food, you are in the paying passenger business and you are a fool if you think this subterfuge will fool anyone else.
5. If you are taking "paying passengers" and you don't have the proper legalities covered you are in over your head. And, the authorities can spot you like a fish out of water. Unless you come to their attention(accident, being turned in, being boarded) you may get away with "it" for a long time.
6. If you get caught in the "legal flypaper" you may come to wish that you were just a "fly", as you would have a better chance of escape.

There is a saying, "young men know all the rules, old ones know all the exceptions". Be careful, you may think you know the exceptions, maybe not.

The lawyers amongst this group may quibble with my tips, but keep in mind that this is what I have concluded from over 60 years of dealing with boats, crew and owners.

[Rodney]

A boat owner cannot accept anything of value from a passenger without a captain's license (OUPV or higher). Accepting anything of value converts the "crew" to a a paying passenger and, if the owner is not licensed, subjects the owner to fines, penalties, and possibly forfeiture of the vessel. https://mariners.coastguard.dodlive....nger-charters/

Capt Rod

[Juggerknot]

Reminds me of one of my neighbors, an old rummy with a Post sport fish. He'd always invite me to go fishing with him when they were running. He finally wore me down and I agreed and that's when he put the arm on me for the costs to run the trip! A day fishing with someone that I marginally tolerated was possible but paying for the privilege of a full day of his bluster with no way out, forget it! I can't count the times I've taken friends and neighbors out fishing diving or just a nice run up the river and never once asked for a penny. I'm going out and their being there cost me nothing but a few beers and some bait perhaps. Different strokes for different folks I guess...

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by DHLyman

Looking to crew on a yacht, on the east coast, perhaps offshore to Bermuda and the Caribbean? Go to www.SailOPO.com.

Originally Posted by tootalltony

If you want to help crew on a sailboat..... join OPO (offshore passage opportunities)

Originally Posted by hvkelley

I have had good luck crewing on two NICE sailing yachts with sailopo.com

All in under an hour? A cynic might suspect this was something other than random, unprompted helpful advice

[DefinitelyMe]

I think you pay for what you get and people can ask for whatever they want.

If you don't need help but want to provide an opportunity for someone then sure, ask them to contribute.

If you'd like help but don't need skilled help then volunteers are probably where you're at.

If you want skilled help from someone that is going to teach you how to run your boat, or take on some of the risk then that's something you should be willing to pay for. If you're not willing that's ok but don't expect highly-skilled crew!

[CaptnKen]

Lots of feedback and ideas of what to "crew" means. Just an upfront simple description of the owner's need for crew is would save time. For us, asking for crew on our 41' sailboat would mean all expenses paid while on the boat. You pay expenses to/from boat.

Seems we all have different wants and needs for crewing...

[Bill_Giles]

It is much clearer in the uk, a volunteer crew just pays for the running expenses of the boat whilst aboard. If there is any profit to the skipper/owner then it becomes a charter and a whole new legal affair with classifications of the boat and qualifications for the skipper. Depending on the area, the amount of time in marinas etc then a crew might be expected to contribute around $20 - $40 a day for fuel, food, marina berths. We often, with friends, share restaurant bills, bar tallies etc.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by CaptnKen

Lots of feedback and ideas of what to "crew" means. Just an upfront simple description of the owner's need for crew is would save time. For us, asking for crew on our 41' sailboat would mean all expenses paid while on the boat. You pay expenses to/from boat.

Seems we all have different wants and needs for crewing...

The problem is if they expect crew to contribute and they list a dollar amount in the ad, it can create the appearance of a for profit enterprise. So if bad things happen, it likely will be used against you and it's in writing.

If instead you wait and discuss it verbally, you can clarify intent or dispute if the "crew" implies it was for profit.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Bill_Giles

It is much clearer in the uk, a volunteer crew just pays for the running expenses of the boat whilst aboard. If there is any profit to the skipper/owner then it becomes a charter and a whole new legal affair with classifications of the boat and qualifications for the skipper. Depending on the area, the amount of time in marinas etc then a crew might be expected to contribute around $20 - $40 a day for fuel, food, marina berths. We often, with friends, share restaurant bills, bar tallies etc.

Define "profit" from the govt perspective for us.
- If I buy a $500k boat, pay $10k/yr for a slip and $20k/yr for maintenance, plus other misc. boat expenses... can I charge $1000/day for "crew" and because I didn't make a net profit, it's legit not to meet all the commercial rules?

It's largely the same in the USA. If you take friends out and they chip in, it's fine. $20-40 is unlikely to cause any eyebrows to raise unless there is something obvious that looks like you are attempting to profit. But when the dollar amounts get big, that's a tough sell:
- For example, the nice couple charging $7k for a crew opportunity would be hard pressed to claim, they were just friends sharing some of the expense.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Define "profit" from the govt perspective for us.
- If I buy a $500k boat, pay $10k/yr for a slip and $20k/yr for maintenance, plus other misc. boat expenses... can I charge $1000/day for "crew" and because I didn't make a net profit, it's legit not to meet all the commercial rules?

It's largely the same in the USA. If you take friends out and they chip in, it's fine. $20-40 is unlikely to cause any eyebrows to raise unless there is something obvious that looks like you are attempting to profit. But when the dollar amounts get big, that's a tough sell:
- For example, the nice couple charging $7k for a crew opportunity would be hard pressed to claim, they were just friends sharing some of the expense.

The rules in the US are quite clear. The way to not be in violation of the rules is to follow them and not try to rationalize a workaround that ignores the part about asking for compensation. Or else, get your six pack license and operate legally as an uninspected passenger vessel.

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Define "profit" from the govt perspective for us.

See post #38. In the UK Costs need to be limited to a share of those directly incurred on a voyage. Food, fuel and marina fees incurred as part of a particular journey are legitimate costs to be shared. Depreciation or capital cost of the boat is not.

[CaptnKen]

Bottom line is the Captain/owner is responsible for knowing the rules! If he/she violates them and gets caught it is their ass...

[Nomad57]

Not really relevant to the discussion of money, (although one owner did an awful lot of complaining about what the trip was costing him...) I did a couple of crew trips 16-18 years ago. The first was via a crew bank, the second was with a friend of a friend, who "had a bit of a temper".


I understood my responsibility was to stand watches and help with the boat. In actuality, having some mechanical aptitude, I fixed almost everything that was wrong with these floating derelicts, (one was a seven year old sailboat that looked OK, but hid a multitude of sins).


In both cases, my services were not appreciated. In the first instance, I mentioned my disenchantment to a fellow boater, who advised that I fulfill my obligation to complete the trip, unless it became dangerous. It did, and I left the boats prior to completion of the trips.


There wasn't a third time.


Nomad