Visit our Popular Forums

valhalla360 · 21-11-2020, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by muttnik

See post #38. In the UK Costs need to be limited to a share of those directly incurred on a voyage. Food, fuel and marina fees incurred as part of a particular journey are legitimate costs to be shared. Depreciation or capital cost of the boat is not.

So really the pretty much the same as the USA.

valhalla360 · 21-11-2020, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

The rules in the US are quite clear. The way to not be in violation of the rules is to follow them and not try to rationalize a workaround that ignores the part about asking for compensation. Or else, get your six pack license and operate legally as an uninspected passenger vessel.

I agree but you get people on the forum fairly regularly trying to game the system by claiming random strangers are "friends".

Manateeman · 21-11-2020, 14:15

If the UK system permits payment to the vessel, fine.
The US system is clear. Nothing of value means exactly that...period.
The USCG is now following the letter of the law. For example, a lot of six pack captains did not join a random drug and alcohol testing program because they only did summer charters and knew they could pass a spot test. Now, the USCG writes you up. Years ago, if you had only one or two issues like you forgot to have a spare pair of eyeglasses with you or there was some oil under the engine...they would let it pass if you were nice and promised to correct it.
After the duck boat and the dive boat tragedies, the press and congress put a lot of pressure on. Keep your boat looking sharp and all your ducks in a row. Guests ought to be just that and they do not like someone who thinks they are playing them for fools. I’ve gotton a pass on a few things by being honest and not telling them the manatees ate my logbook.
I’m not in favor of mandatory testing but if you get a license, you will feel better knowing stuff and so will your guests.
Knowing stuff reduces the chances of anything bad happening and if you end up entangled in anything, will be time and money you will be happy you spent.
Any attorney in admiralty will have an easier time presenting your side.
Do it for yourself and those on your vessel...especially children.
Happy trails to you

Captain Mark and his professional manatee crew.

DHLyman · 21-11-2020, 14:38

If you have offshore experience, know Rules of the road, can stand a nite watch and not fall asleep, understand running lights on an approaching vessel, then you maybe if some value to a delivery skipper or yacht owner. You come along free.
SailOPO.com, the crew network has hundred of members all more than willing to “ volunteer” to spend a few days or weeks to help delivery a yacht, they are willing pay their way to and from the boat, with owner covering all onboard expenses during the voyage if you don’t have a few offshore voyages under your belt under the tutelage of a skilled skipper, you may have to pay for a course or a voyage. SailIOPO has a Swan program that fills up every fall and spring when a half a dozen Swans make the annual offshore voyage between Newport (RI) and the Caribbean. Crews pay $3500 all expenses onboard included, except travel to and from the boat, for a 3 week voyage offshore. The slippers are some of the best in the yachting community.

muttnik · 21-11-2020, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHLyman

SailOPO.com, the crew network has hundred of members all more than willing to “ volunteer” to spend a few days or weeks to help delivery a yacht

This is something of a re-work of your post #44 which was followed in quick succession by 2 other advert-like posts for the same web site. What is incentivising these posts?

$3500 for 3 weeks doesn't sounds somewhat more than "shared costs".

thataway41 · 22-11-2020, 19:38

We come from a racing, some long distance, background. Generally the only expense we would pay would be for a young person, with limited means, but good skills, we would pay airfare home, unless they wanted to help take the boat back to home port. But the crew must have skills. There was competition for crew slots.

In our cruising days, we took friends. Most were experienced, sometimes a spouse was not. But we only took people we knew. There was one passage: Bermuda to Azores, where we had a couple who was going to join us, and had to cancel at the last minute because of a medical issue. We considered taking a crew--but of the many interviewed, there was only one we would consider. She was experienced, had a PhD, and seemed to have an easy going personality. But we also balanced that and the ease of watch standing with 3 vs 2--and decided not to have crew. We did have a severe storm, and we know how we both react in a stressful situation--we don't know how a crew will behave. A crew would have been a burden.

I would never charge a crew a fee, or expect them to contribute. Nor would I pay, unless they were a real professional. (CG ticket, with experience).

We might take a crew who wants to learn, and get sea time on short trips. But not across an ocean or non stop 1000 mile or so such as US to Caribbean.

Montanan · 22-11-2020, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHLyman

Crews pay $3500 all expenses onboard included, except travel to and from the boat, for a 3 week voyage offshore. The slippers are some of the best in the yachting community.

Under these arrangements in the USA, each of the crew, READ PASSENGERS, are legally "passengers for hire" when they leave Newport. And the vessel and the Owner and the Master are required to meet USCG regulations for commercial vessels. Note: Crew typically are paid to operate the vessel. Albeit there be a definite cross over between Passenger for Hire & Crew. Crew involves anyone taking on a responsibility for operating the boat, galley hand, helmsperson, watch keeper, anchor watch keeper, navigator, medic, movable ballast, bilge pumper, keelhauler, etc. If they "crew" there be major legal and liability issues for both the owner of the boat, the Master of the boat and the individual crew member. By way of example, if you are crewing as the watch keeper or helmsperson and the boat has a collision or allision, you will or likely be held responsible. If it capsizes due to your poor seapersonship you could and likely will be responsible for the loss of the vessel and those on board. Maritime law is complex, when you step aboard you are subject to it.

Paying $3,500 is less than a typical per passenger fee for a 3 week charter voyage, but heck those had better be really comfortable slippers issued to each of the crew. I'm thinking exotic shearling wool slippers, which I happen to be presently wearing here in Montaña, this being our winter, [the four seasons of Montana, June, July, August and Winter]

While the law of the yacht's country of registration, the flag state's law, regulates employment on board, local port state laws can also have a bearing, especially when an aggrieved crewmember seeks redress.

As to the UK, snipet copied below for informative purposes from Crewkeepers website. The most obvious difference between the UK and the USA is if the contribution be strictly voluntary and not requested, or if it is requested, be that in money or wine, or other forms of contribution, such as service.

"It’s important to be clear about money in advance. For some crews, this is based on individuals paying for their own travel costs and agreeing to share direct onboard living costs such as food, drink, fuel, and mooring costs, and the owner paying for maintenance and repairs.

Beyond this, it’s sometimes the case that onshore costs such as meals and transport are also shared out equally via a boat kitty. In other cases, a generous owner might pay for all of the onboard costs, or might even agree to pay crew travel costs to or from the vessel.

Where there is to be an agreed contribution this may be a daily amount or an equal share of accrued costs at the end of the trip.

For skippers, this allows them to offset their cruising costs and have help running watches and hopefully have some pleasant company, and for the crew, it allows them to go sailing and gain valuable experience for what amounts to a fraction of the actual or commercial cost.

However, there is an important distinction to be made between boats run on this basis and commercial sailing operations. Amateur sailing opportunities seeking crew contributions that are posted on Crewseekers should not be run for a commercial gain. They should not include a passage or charter fee or contribution to the capital costs of the vessel but can include a reasonable share of the actual voyage costs.

Whatever agreement is reached it is sensible to have a written record of this, and this may be as simple as a note in the log book, or for longer passages with more costs incurred you may wish to consider a written Crew Agreement (an example is included here).

What is a reasonable contribution?

In line with current UK legislation, Crewseekers advises that any contribution sought from crew should be a reasonable amount to cover the direct daily running costs of the vessel. Other countries have similar rules, however, Crewseekers cannot offer information on each legislative territory.

The amount that Crew contributes can be a contentious issue attracting many differing opinions amongst skippers and crew. There is no absolute answer, and different types of vessels sailing in cruising areas throughout the world will each have a different level of expenditure. For some, this might be around £20 per person per day, e.g.: this could include a modest lunch and dinner aboard plus fuel costs and a marina for the night. But for others, perhaps in more remote cruising areas, that might not reasonably cover the daily costs. For instance, cruising to Galapagos requires a permit that can cost up to $1500 for 60 days. Dividing this by, say, 3 crew, would add $500pp to the shared contribution.

There is no prescribed ‘reasonable amount” and Crewseekers does not seek to be the arbiter of what that might be. Skippers must ensure that they do not unintentionally find themselves operating on a ‘quasi’ commercial basis and prospective crew should satisfy themselves that they are paying a fair share of actual daily running costs – without any contribution to the capital costs of the vessel.

Some crew might think that they are providing crewing services and should make no contribution, whilst some skippers/owners take the view that they are offering a sailing experience for which they are covering considerable capital costs and a contribution to the daily kitty is very welcome. In most cases, the skipper of the boat is looking for additional hands on board to share the enjoyment of the voyage and it is not unreasonable to expect to share some costs. Although of course there will be cases where the crew can reasonably expect to be paid for their services – such as a commercial delivery requiring suitably qualified sea staff, or a chartered vessel looking for crew to assist in the safety and welfare of the guests, for instance.

You should agree what these financial arrangements are in writing before setting sail. Whatever the agreement reached, there is no doubt that everyone aboard will operate more harmoniously if they feel they are contributing to the voyage – no matter how that is gauged.

Pleasure or commercial?

There should not be an element in any contribution to cover the capital costs of the vessel or any financial remuneration for the skipper/owner – if there is then the vessel is deemed to be operating for commercial gain and anyone paying such a fee is not classed as crew but as a passenger. This will alter the legal relationship and have insurance and liability implications.

British flagged vessels operating commercially must comply with the relevant Codes of Practice. These detail both the equipment a vessel must have on board and the Certificate of Competence required by the skipper (and in some cases the crew) of the vessel (other countries will have similar legislation).

Pleasure vessels are exempt from the Small Commercial Vessel Codes of Practice.

To be regarded as a pleasure vessel, rather than a commercial vessel, it is necessary, amongst other stipulations, to comply with this extract from the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004:

Section 2/Definitions.

“Pleasure vessel” as defined in the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004 includes the following extract

"the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may only receive money for, or in connection with, the operation of the vessel or the carrying of any person in the vessel as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion.?

Read the full legal definition of a pleasure vessel:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...ulation/2/made

As you can see, therefore, the owner of a vessel requesting more than a contribution towards the direct expenses may be deemed to be operating the vessel commercially, however, the UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency does not specify what represents a reasonable contribution. It is up to each skipper and crew to agree what that figure might be with due regard to the nature of the voyage, the sailing area, the size and type of the vessel, and the expectations of the living standards aboard!

These financial arrangements may affect how the crew works together – if a crew pays a passage fee or daily rate, are they part of the working crew or on holiday? If the owner pays for everything, are the crew effectively employees without the benefits that might be expected of that position.

If crew contributions are in excess of what could be considered reasonable, then the sailing opportunity should be posted in the Crewseekers Directory section which serves to promote commercial sailing ventures.

For my own part, I always feel more comfortable aboard someone else’s boat if I’m paying for my own food and drink – regardless of how hard I’m being worked, yet on my own boat I’m quite happy to treat the crew to a drink ashore in reward for a hard days crewing – but I find it a bit rich if they come aboard empty handed! I’ve sailed with my bank manager aboard an old 28 footer (which he managed to sell to me ) and been offered cheese and a raw onion for lunch, and I’ve crewed across the Atlantic on a luxury Oyster 72 with wine for dinner, In each case I made a similar contribution to the daily kitty, as requested by the skipper. You’ll already have worked out which was the better deal!

This information is based on UK legislation and different regulations may apply in other countries. The information and views contained herein are not offered as legal advice and Crewseekers does offer any warranty implied or otherwise as to the legality or fitness for purpose of this information."

Soldout2sailing · 23-11-2020, 13:17

A delivery crew is different than people sailing their boat around and needing a hand standing watches. I do delivery crewing and get no salary but everything is paid by the owner of the boat including my travel expenses and food onboard. If we go out to eat before or after, I pay for my food and drinks normally. Crewing for non-deliveries, it truly is up to the agreement you make. Personally, I wouldn't pay for my flight to some distant location, work for free as crew, sharing in cooking and making repairs on a boat. If someone needs an experienced crew member, I want to go with people who can afford to pay for some of my expenses. That said, I sailed for many years and on many offshore deliveries and have far more experience than many who are trying to gain miles so your expectations need to match your experience. BTW, I also own a 46' sailing vessel so I crew to help others vice them helping me. If it were otherwise, I would pay.

Catamoron · 29-11-2020, 21:02

Maybe those people that spend thousands of dollars a week to charter a boat should start requesting payments from the charter company for ensuring that all the systems on the boat are operational. Crewing on someone's boat and not expecting to pay a nominal daily fee is like letting someone live in your house for free because they cook dinner and mow the grass. The fact that someone thinks they can just waltz onto my boat, get a private cabin, enjoy everything that I've worked my entire life to afford, and bear no cost in any of it, is beyond me. Oh, but wait, you'll cook, do the dishes, and stand watch? Oh, then never mind....welcome aboard. SMH.

Uncle Bob · 29-11-2020, 23:30

Quote: