Really bad boat survey

[skipmac]

Hi Flipz1 and welcome to the forum.

Background, I used to be a yacht broker and participated in dozens of surveys with about a dozen different surveyors so hopefully can give you an overview of the issues, based on how it works in the USA.

First, unless you want to get a lawyer involved I think your odds of any significant recourse at this time are very slim. Beyond this I think the previous replies cover the situation pretty well. Is your experience normal? I can say it isn't that uncommon.

Some of the problems you list are either too minor or beyond the scope of a normal survey. However many of them should have been found and noted. For example a propane leak is a serious safety issue and should have been found and noted with strong emphasis on immediate repair.

Regardless of your skill level you should have been there for the survey. Even as a newbie you could have asked the surveyor why he/she didn't turn on the VHF radio, asked to see the AP work. Even if you didn't feel competent to contribute to the survey it would have been a very good learning experience and a good primer for you on all the boat systems.

At this point, chalk it up to experience and see it as time to get your hands dirty and start learning the guts of your boat. Prioritize the most important for safety and function and start repairing. If you are uncertain you can always come back to the forum for help.

I would start with the propane leak. That could be a killer and I'm not exaggerating!!!!!!! Not sure what an uptake ball valve is for the bilge pump. There should not be a valve on the intake (uptake?) side of the pump so maybe you mean the seacock on the pump discharge? Regardless, get the bilge pump right.

VHF also. Could be corroded antenna connection? If the VHF is defective don't waste time trying to fix it, buy a new one. They're cheap and the new ones have more bells and whistles, some of them even useful.

Good luck.

[Flipz1]

Good question. I went up the street and asked the guy who sold me the boat if he knew the boat listed to starboard and he seemed stunned he didn't notice. As we were trying to figure out why the heat was causing water to dump into the bilge, the inspector showed up (a 90 minute drive, no less). He stood on the boat and apologized several times for not noticing with no explanation of how that was even possible. Then he spent about 20 minutes helping the boat yard owner figure out how to keep the boat from flooding.

So, it's not that he doesn't care. Bad day? Distracted? Who knows. I'm sending him a list of things he missed so maybe he'll do better for the next guy.

[ZULU40]

This sounds more like a survey for insurance purposes.
Me? I had my own gripe, after 2 weeks waiting I had photos of the following but no report from the surveyor. Clearly he spotted the issues, however ... the buy offer was running out of time and I had to decide without the report.

I think the images were meant to describe:
It had several complete breaks in the bilge pump out line so the wash came straight back into the sump
One of the seacocks broke off completely when removing the hose to get it out.
The engine heat exchanger blew a part after 20 mins engine running time.
The entire wiring is a dangerous mess (he did actually say that) with some 240 volt AC having bare wires showing.
The autohelm was missing some parts.
The expansion tank was only loosely connected.
The Velvetdrive trans cooler was connected with zip ties


Among the few things he missed.
All the flares, EPIRB and safety gear was out of date.
The VHF doesnt work.
The start battery wouldnt hold a charge.
The alternator had blown diodes so wouldnt charge anything anyway.
The diesel tank had a failed edge joint and let all 12 gallons of remaining diesel into the bilge moving the boat across the harbour.
The gooseneck has several cracks in it.
Several clevis split pins were missing from the stays.

On the buyer side of the ledger despite the seriousness of the faults the boat was a very good buy, he said that too. But I think if he completed his report in a timely manner I would be most pleased, but as it was I was left to determine for myself that the vessel was in no way fit for sea. Which was a fortunate decision and I had her moved by road.

Worse, when you look at the issues in totality, if the boat was moved even 50 miles on the ocean she would have been in some serious trouble, possibly resulting in the loss of the boat and the crew.

The moral to the story is that at some point you need to look and decide for yourself whether something you are buying is both a good deal, and fit for purpose.

Choose wisely

[Flipz1]

The VHF inside works and everything on the handset works - apparently. I couldn't call out.

Already fixed the propane leak.

The ball valve (probably not the correct name) is a device that prevents back-flow once water is pulled out of the boat. When it was locked up, I'd turn off the pump and about a gallon of water would flow back into the bilge from the hose.

[CarlF]

How long was your survey? 3-4 hours? A full day survey would have found more but that would have cost well over $1000. Would you have paid that?

And if the surveyor had told you these things, would you have walked away? I didn’t think so.

A survey is not a warranty. If you want a warranty you have to buy new.

And I assume after the survey, you got a price adjustment from the seller. These adjustments are always a negotiation that never cover everything found in the survey. It’s very unlikely that these extra things would have gotten a bigger adjustment from the seller.

And if the surveyor had put down all this stuff, your insurance company probably would have made you fix more stuff before covering the boat.And they would have likely required a boatyard bill to prove it was fixed. It would have cost you money.

So yes. This is a normal part of owning a boat. It’s called “The List”. You’ll never get everything fixed. I feel good if I can keep my list fitting on one page of paper.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Flipz1

The ball valve (probably not the correct name) is a device that prevents back-flow once water is pulled out of the boat. When it was locked up, I'd turn off the pump and about a gallon of water would flow back into the bilge from the hose.

what you need there is a non return valve several feet upstream from the pump, otherwise you risk the pump continuously cycling to remove the same water.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by billknny

Part of any survey is to operate each piece of equipment on the boat. If any piece of equipment would not or could not be operated it should be noted.

There are a few things on the list you have that I might forgive the surveyor missing, but not that whole list. I assume the surveyor saw the boat while it was floating? If not... there is a lot on that list he could not have found and his survey document should exempt those things from evaluation.

And some things, (squeaking hinges?) most surveyors would have dismissed as de minimis.

How did you pick the surveyor? Did a broker recommend him? If so get the broker involved. Is the surveyor accredited with one of the major organizations? You would have some leverage there.

If you scream loudly enough you might get the cost of the survey back. Anything past that would require a lawsuit...

This is the best answer.
I conduct surveys for prospective buyers and do operate all systems aboard. Usually it takes a full day of work (sometimes more, depends on boat's size & complexity). I certainly do miss items sometimes but never such a long list of overlooked problems.
You certainly have grounds for complaint to the surveyor.

[contrail]

This may surprise folks, but I always enjoy surveys, and I have always been there. I think it has been eleven times! Most were great and highly professional, one was less than basic. Two were pre-purchase surveys, the toughest, and the others were for insurance. Pre-purchase should cover just about everything that is non-destructive, other than what has been specifically left out, such as an engine or rig survey, but even these are included in the entire day that is spent by my favourite surveyor, and even on his insurance surveys. Most insurance surveys are simply assessments of the overall condition of a boat, and an inventory of equipment and age, which the insurance company wants. I have never experienced a survey as skimpy as Boatie has specified, but it may be different in different places. I usually get a report that is pages and pages long.

My expectation is that something will always be missed. This can be something that can't be readily determined, such as an A/C compressor that shuts down after a few hours, or a leaking valve, when the boat is surveyed only on shore. Sometimes it is an oversight. Since I am always there for the survey, sometimes I point out something that I think may get missed. It's never much, but it is always something.

I also always expect to learn something.....and I always do. One time is was a trick to determine if chainplate bolts were all tight: Loosely tap them all with something metal. If they all ring the same, they are all tight. If one of them rings a little dull, it needs attention and tightening. Sometimes I learn something more than a trick...either a maintenance tip or design requirement. But, there is always something.

Bear in mind that I have owned boats since 1982, and have lived aboard the entire time since, except for one period of four years. I do most of my maintenance, work as a charter skipper and instructor, and have read widely and written, some. So, I am not ignorant, by any means. But, I always find something, and I always learn something. That is my expectation and it has never failed. Those things, and the expectation that another pair of really skilled and attentive eyes will have gone over the same boat that I look at every day gives me peace of mind.

There was a good surveyor once, who asked why I was having my boat surveyed. He said, "There is no way that I will find something that you have not seen." I replied, "Go ahead, anyway. I guarantee you will find something." To his surprise, he did, and it made the survey worthwhile. It's amazing what you might miss. And, it's the same, only much less so, for the surveyor.

Some tips that may help, some of which have been mentioned.

1) Choose your surveyor very, very carefully. Ask around. Brokers don't always give you bad ideas, particularly if they are a broker other than the one you are buying from. Ask insurance agents and boatyards. Find the surveyor that worries people because he or she is so thorough. Ask at a yacht club, or around a marina. Talk to surveyors.

2) Chat a bit with your chosen surveyor. Nothing like building a relationship. Share your expectations and what you already know about the boat. If you have done some research and are aware of likely problems, share that. Not only may that prevent an oversight, but it demonstrates that you are invested and are not ignorant. You will get a better result.

3) Ask if you can attend. I have never gotten a "no", and would cancel the survey if I did, but it is respectful to clear it with the surveyor. You may know the old saying, "My hourly rate is $15, or $30 if the owner is present." It is always wise to check that someone who is working is alright with having another person present. I have always gotten the answer, "fine, in fact, you can help me move things around." But do ask.

4) Attend. Of course. Someone commented that lots of folks buy a pretty large first boat, these days, which is very different from before. I occasionally help people buy catamarans, which are my specialty, and am always amazed at how little experience some have. My catamaran course includes not only the certification materials, but lots of other bits and pieces that might not have been necessary for someone who brings more experience to the table, but people really enjoy that, and I enjoy preparing them better. It's just how people seem to get into boating, these day, and I think that completely abdicating any responsibility for being there during a survey is symptomatic. Don't do it. If you need to re-schedule the survey or a work commitment, re-schedule. How else are you going to be able to actually see the problem and ask questions, including how to fix it? Or you just going to turn it over to the boatyard with a blank work order?

5) Prepare the boat for a survey. Surveyors don't like to spend a lot of their time moving junk and other stuff around. Make their job easier. They will concentrate better, have more time for important things (like your quesions) and do a better job. And they will appreciate it.

6) There are things that can only be found in the water. There are things that can only be found out of the water. Make sure both are covered. Make sure that what is specifically not covered, such as a rig or engine inspection, is looked at by an appropriate professional, or don't complain when there are problems.

7) Maintain your relationship with a good surveyor. Unless you get out of boat ownership, there will always be another surveyor. The surveyor I use these days has a long record of my boat's condition, additions and modifications, problems, etc. etc, and takes a personal interest. If I haul out, and he is in the area, he will come around at some point and give a casual once over. The flip side is that he knows he will always have my business, if possible, and the business of others to whom I recommend him. Maintain that relationship.

With regard to the OP, I notice that an "uptake ball valve to the bilge pump" was mentioned. I can understand a valve in the discharge line, in rare cases where the discharge on a non-automatic pump is near the water line, but on the "uptake" (or intake)? What was meant? The OP is correct that there is a stage in the learning process where one "is dangerous", and we all go through it. But, I would respectfully advise learning the terminology and how things work, so that reports, both to and regarding surveyors, are more plausible and understandable, and boating can be more enjoyable.

Congratulations on joining the community, and best of luck with your sailing, in the future. And remember, none of us are trying to offend anyone!

[P3sailor]

Boat surveyors and home inspectors fall into the same category, some good many not worth a dam. I had my last home inspected prior to purchasing the inspector didn't find any major issues. I can't begin to tell you how many serious issues this home has, my 4th home and by-far the worst I've ever bought...basically has cost me my sailboat!!!

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Flipz1

Hopefully, somebody out there will have advice that might help.

I bought a Beneteau 381 about 3 months ago. It had been in dry dock for 3 years and was dry when I first saw the boat. The boat is 17 years old but looks very nice both outside and almost unused on the inside. I'll bitch some here, but I still think I bought well.

First, I'm a new boat owner. While a few upgrades were being done (electric hear and windlass, inverter installed), I was taking ASA 101, 103, & 104. Now, I know just enough to be dangerous.

My question is about getting stuck fixing things that I believe anybody competent would have caught in a survey. I couldn't make it there for the survey and would have just been in the way at that point anyway. However, now I've spent some time on a boat and have learned about all the working components. Try out this list for things the surveyor did not find:

The boat lists about 2.5 degrees to starboard. He stated it sits flat in the water.

I have heat/AC. There is almost no airflow in the main vent and absolutely none in either cabin.

Also for the AC/heat unit. When I put the boat in the water and started walking through items one at a time, I turned on the heat. Some valve was not functioning (no idea what that is) and seawater started flooding the boat - fast. The yard manager found the issue and fixed it. Surveyor didn't find it?

The fresh water strainer was corroded beyond use.

A hinge on the aft cabin door was so corroded that is screamed as you closed the door and was almost breaking the wood holding it in place.

Several door latches don't work or are missing.

The engine has a slow sea water leak as it runs and I have to cycle the bilge pump to keep the boat dry.

The uptake ball valve for the bilge pump was corroded and locked in place.

The gas solenoid doesn't work.

The connector tube from the propane tank to the valve leaks badly.

The strainer cap for incoming water on the AC/heat drips water

Auto pilot isn't just not working, the display is dead

Auto pilot connection through the binnacle is broken with about 3/16" of wiggle room

The transom shower head is corroded and not functional

The VHF at the binnacle doesn't transmit

The pin that stops the stove from pivoting won't engage the hole to stop rocking

Forward cabin door doesn't close

The stereo doesn't work

Threads to the shore power connector cover cap are stripped and the cap won't stay on

And, I've forgotten a few more but that's enough.

My question to you guys is - if this normal? Most of these things I found in just a few hours of routine maintenance work getting ready to launch. Now I'm wondering if the guy spent less than 10 minutes on board and just wrote a lovely review for the money.

Any suggestions? And what might it cost to get the boat level or get the AC/heat ventilation right? This could be a lot of cash for things I should have been informed of before purchase.

I can see maybe a couple of things but most don't seem in the prevue of the surveyor without the owner present. JMHO

[Flipz1]

And that is it in a nutshell. I just can't imagine not checking most of these things and I'm nervous about what I'll find next.

[sailorchic34]

as others have indicated this was most likely an insurance survey. Surveyors even the good ones, never catch everything. and there are no perfect used boats. Most of the issues with the OP's first boat is typical "New Owner" boat stuff, every owner deals with.

Luckily nothing major happened and with luck, you will check everything yourself on the next boat, before buying it.

The remote mic not working could be a bad cable (Happened to me last year, but I already had a spare cable).

It's a boat, things break. All the time.

AC ventilation issues, check that there isn't either a dirty filter or a clogged evap coil. Either will cause a large reduction in air flow. Also check for collapsed ducts. Or a bad fan motor or wiring connection (rare)

Personally I detest check valves on bilge pump discharge. A check valve "will" fail. Luckily yours failed open. They can just as easily fail closed. That gets annoying real quick.

[Cheechako]

To me it's a bad survey. Often items are not able to be operated during a survey, but the surveyor should note that specifically. Some things are not officially part of a survey, but they note them anyway. For instance: Surveyors dont normally do an engine analysis, but they always note something like: "boat was not in the water and no test of engine was possible" or "boat was not in the water and no test of depth sounder was possible". Regarding door latches etc, doors often dont work well on the hard as boats change shape out of the water. The only way to know is to have the boat in the water.
It's not normal for surveyors to detail inspect every little thing. Like the threads on the ac power receptacle. If they did a survey would be $1000 instead of $500.
-ALWAYS be there with the surveyor when having it done. Ask questions, lots of them.
-DITTO for having work done.

[taxwizz]

I had a totally different experience.

After I purchased my boat, with survey, including the clause "all systems in good working order", I noticed a number of problems, which I listed, including an overheating engine, non-working battery charger, non-working head, outdated propane cylinders, and non-working GPS chart plotter.

I started by asking the vendor, the broker and the surveyor to kindly reimburse my itemized list of charge backs totaling $1,975.00.

They apparently saw some humor in my request, until I formally requested their correct legal business names and address for service.

A cheque followed promptly, and everyone was happy.

I love Small Claims Court.
Often just the threat makes the blood run cold.

[boatpoker]

I've done 4,586 surveys. I have never differentiated between an insurance survery, a pre-purchase or C&V. To me a survey is a survey, period.

Of the 250 surveyors in Ontario, there are five that I respect and hold the same attitude. I also know a few on the US East Coast that feel the same.

There is nothing on that list that the surveyor could justify missing. You just hired a lazy or incompetent surveyor.

I highly recommend that anyone hiring a surveyor needs to put as much effort in to that as they do searching for the right boat. There are some superb surveyors out there, sadly there are many more incompetent charlatans.

A few thought to help you find a good surveyor .... All About Marine Surveyors