"Pirates" off Gibraltar

[Franziska]

Well at least in the core of where things need to be changed we agree. In the home countries.

Our main difference seems to be that I simply can not accept that we as EU let people drown in the Med. Those at sea have to get rescued.

On the islands of course you run out of space.
Why are there countries in the EU who don't help to spread the load and solve the issues. Here, at the borders and even more in the homecountries.

Why is it that Germany was forced to take over a million refugees and others simply refused to help Greece, Malts, Italy and Spain.

Originally Posted by GTom

Shame on me of course, where is your Maths?? You take one on your boat, then a second, a third... - you'll run out of space very quickly just like the Canaries or the Greek islands. And no, you can't just offload them to your neighbor's boat letting them solving and financing the problem, you have to manage your own space. Question of time when the rest of this small continent runs out of space and face the very same problems as Gran Canaria or Lesbos.


Actually the Turks, paid by Germany are leaving them in the ditch on the Syrian border - btw, most are real refugees there unlike in Western Africa.

The problem has to be solved locally, where these people come from. Stop the wars, educate the locals not to breed 8 when the available water and food can only support 2, liberate them from corrupt regimes, pay their work fairly and so on. Taking the young and skilled part of the population only deepens the misery of these countries.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by GTom

(...)


Question of time when the rest of this small continent runs out of space and face the very same problems as Gran Canaria or Lesbos.

I think space our continent has enough.


What our continent does not have (anymore) is the growth we had prior to sending our production to other continents.


Perhaps the situation is better in some places. But here (Spain) the problem is that so many jobs have been exported away to where manufacturing is cheaper (thus creating higher return to the capital holders).


I truly believe this many immigrants would be no problem in the industrial and economical reality of Europe in the 70'ies and into late 80'ies. But today there is no growth anymore. There is no need for more hands.



When globalization came along, we sold our future for having inexpensive (and low quality) t-shirts.


Some cultures fall, new cultures take over. When you are in S Spain you have no doubt which culture is falling.


Not chasing or "chasing" potential drug traffickers is a sign of the changes we are going thru.


Sailor beware.



b.

[GTom]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Well at least in the core of where things need to be changed we agree. In the home countries.

Our main difference seems to be that I simply can not accept that we as EU let people drown in the Med. Those at sea have to get rescued.

Yes, they have to be rescued and a safe haven should be established for them on the African shore, which is usually closer to their rescue point anyway.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I think space our continent has enough.


What our continent does not have (anymore) is the growth we had prior to sending our production to other continents.


Perhaps the situation is better in some places. But here (Spain) the problem is that so many jobs have been exported away to where manufacturing is cheaper (thus creating higher return to the capital holders).


I truly believe this many immigrants would be no problem in the industrial and economical reality of Europe in the 70'ies and into late 80'ies. But today there is no growth anymore. There is no need for more hands.



When globalization came along, we sold our future for having inexpensive (and low quality) t-shirts.


Some cultures fall, new cultures take over. When you are in S Spain you have no doubt which culture is falling.


Not chasing or "chasing" potential drug traffickers is a sign of the changes we are going thru.


Sailor beware.



b.

We overpopulated the continent hundreds if not thousands of years ago ourselves, destroying most natural habitats and many species. This started to correct veeery sloowly recently but we are way far from the levels where human and nature could live together in harmony. The last thing we need is further population growth - I know, corporates and pension funds squeezing $$$ from people say exactly the opposite.

Indeed, the economic growth is gone just as the hunger for manual labor. Our own work is becoming unnecessary as we speak, how can we provide jobs for even more people? We "do", but we pay sh.t and the poor souls live sometimes in worse conditions than back in Nigeria/Senegal/etc: https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...t-crisis-point

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Our main difference seems to be that I simply can not accept that we as EU let people drown in the Med. Those at sea have to get rescued.

We, as EU people, do not let people drown. Neither we as sailors do.



Nobody, ever, should be left to drown.


If you follow the news you see there are very few acts of hostility or neglect.


Immigrants in boats drown in bad weather, and out of dehydration. There have been also cases where shooting has been suspected (by the traffickers).



It is not like these people find a boat and go for it. They buy a ride from organized trafficking groups.


It is a business. And one run by some very nasty people too. Not long ago just such a group has been stopped here in Canary Islands. And no they were not African people, they were Italians.


When a patera is spotted here, it gets towed to the nearest Canary harbour. Immigrants are taken care of (doh, as much as we can). The ones with Covid get necessary care (as many as half of the arrivals test positive), all get med checks and vaccinations (Covid is not the worst thing they can fetch to our place). They are treated very well. I never refuse them respect, attention and support. Nobody in the Canaries does. If someone did - he or she does not deserve to call themselves a Canarian.


Ask any Canario. And I am just an immigrant here. I am not Spanish. I have always been treated well. And so I do onto others. Life teaches us things.



I also know that in the Med there are many military, SAR and civic vessels doing each as much as they can. There are hundreds of volunteers - rescuers, doctors, social workers. Not everything can get done, not enough is getting done, but a lot IS being done.


So just that I think.


Nobody should be ever left at sea to perish. And I think hardly anybody is.


If many die, it is not because we leave them there. It is because they undertook an ill advised voyage, got lost or lost power, and did not get found soon enough by those who are out there, doing their jobs and answering their call.



b.

[Franziska]

I hear what you say about the Canary people and I understand that their situation is dire, and they are still not letting people drown. They are surely mostly very kind.

You are right we do not force people to put to sea in unseaworthy vessels.
But we do not do enough to prevent them from leaving and we do not do enough to fix help to fix their countries.

The European states could do also more to safe lives in the Med.
Why do private organizations such as SeaWatch than get permanently sticks thrown into their propellers, for example by the Italian government (which is not properly supported by the EU in handling the refugees).
Last example was SeaWatch4 a very capable offshore vessel fully compliant with the German flag state regulations.
They where stopped by some Italian official claiming there would be to many (!!!!) life vests on board and the onboard sewage piping would not be big enough. I mean really? Come on!

Think about it what would happen in the world if one huge cruisliner with several thousand people would sink. The outcry would be there for years.

About the same amount of people drown year after year in the Med. We as the EU could do more & we need to do more to fix those issues at all levels and ends.
Covid makes all this much worse and the outlook is terrible as well due to the huge cost burdon of Covid.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

We, as EU people, do not let people drown. Neither we as sailors do.



Nobody, ever, should be left to drown.


If you follow the news you see there are very few acts of hostility or neglect.


Immigrants in boats drown in bad weather, and out of dehydration. There have been also cases where shooting has been suspected (by the traffickers).



It is not like these people find a boat and go for it. They buy a ride from organized trafficking groups.


It is a business. And one run by some very nasty people too. Not long ago just such a group has been stopped here in Canary Islands. And no they were not African people, they were Italians.


When a patera is spotted here, it gets towed to the nearest Canary harbour. Immigrants are taken care of (doh, as much as we can). The ones with Covid get necessary care (as many as half of the arrivals test positive), all get med checks and vaccinations (Covid is not the worst thing they can fetch to our place). They are treated very well. I never refuse them respect, attention and support. Nobody in the Canaries does. If someone did - he or she does not deserve to call themselves a Canarian.


Ask any Canario. And I am just an immigrant here. I am not Spanish. I have always been treated well. And so I do onto others. Life teaches us things.



I also know that in the Med there are many military, SAR and civic vessels doing each as much as they can. There are hundreds of volunteers - rescuers, doctors, social workers. Not everything can get done, not enough is getting done, but a lot IS being done.


So just that I think.


Nobody should be ever left at sea to perish. And I think hardly anybody is.


If many die, it is not because we leave them there. It is because they undertook an ill advised voyage, got lost or lost power, and did not get found soon enough by those who are out there, doing their jobs and answering their call.



b.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Years back a cruiser in the med waved a weapon when he didn't like how close another fishing boat got to him. Didn't fire the weapon but it was not declared.

Couple of days later he was visited, a search done, a hand gun recovered. He spent some time in prison, his yacht was confiscated and sold off, he was put on a customs/immigration watch list, and he was kicked out of the country when they were done with him.

Your right to bear arms stops at YOUR countrys' 12 mile limit.

Very true, and a gun is not a flag. Not something to "wave around".

[GTom]

The skirts are too short - apparently in France. Obviously the perpetrators were referring to the standards set by Jeanne D'Arc & Co...

[JamesPNW]

The notion of immigrants & refugees are a bunch of useless, criminal people sucking the country welfare is a stereotype and myth of the nationalist, protectionist and racist to scare the rest of the country. Forbes has documented that in the US 40% of the fortune 500 companies were created by 1st or 2nd generation of immigrants. Even the illegal immigrants paid taxes and didn’t get a dime from any social assistance. No one going through hell to immigrate to a country to sit around for some petty cash and food stamp from the government.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Franziska

(...)



We as the EU could do more & we need to do more to fix those issues at all levels and ends.

(...)

But 'we as the EU' starts in the Bruxelles. The messages should be clear and the ones who are to take action should be named and held accountable.

Our govt in the Bruxelles does a lot of talking. There are countless very important meetings that result in wise and very lengthy 'Directives'. And then ... nothing happens.


I think you want to look at this:


BASIC MONTHLY SALARY OF MPs IN THE EU | Association of Accredited Public Policy Advocates to the European Union


Correct me if I am wrong, is one Berlusconi not an MEP too?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio...Ongoing_trials



We are paying EUR 10k (yes - ten thousand EUR per month) (in 2017 money, before bonuses) to people who spend their lives talking.



Perhaps even benefit from the immigration Med crisis.



And when they get tired talking and evading the law, they will maybe stop a German flagged Human Aid vessel and claim your life vests do not have Italian certification. Then they will go and party with underage women and laugh the hell out of of our naivete.


I sound bitter. I am bitter. Things are wrong. And we are pretending to not know it. Because we are well of, well fed, and lazy.


I do not mean you and me. I mean we, the race.



Something there is bliss. The poet was right, again.


Yours,
barnakiel

[Franziska]

Yes, I agree, but we as in the population of the EU elect the Parliament and part of the people in our population take and took these elections not seriously enough. They refrain from voting or vote for apparent idiots like B.

We need more EU not less. We need Pan European parties and we need to stop that stupid system of unanimous decision taking in Brussels. It keeps stopping progress again and again.

I'd love to see the core EU with common values to get closer together and take more decisions and faster decisions. Unfortunately it seems it's not permissible though to form a core EU within the EU.

In the current world our individual countries are to small to really be a big player as the unfortunate Brits will find out soon.
I am not a fan of Brexit but I do obviously accept their decision.
The other players like China, US, Russia and India are all very big and all have vested interests in ensuring that the EU does not get stronger by pulling together. Hence the guy in DC was so happy about Brexit.

Wow, what a thread digression :-)

Originally Posted by barnakiel

But 'we as the EU' starts in the Bruxelles. The messages should be clear and the ones who are to take action should be named and held accountable.

Our govt in the Bruxelles does a lot of talking. There are countless very important meetings that result in wise and very lengthy 'Directives'. And then ... nothing happens.


I think you want to look at this:


BASIC MONTHLY SALARY OF MPs IN THE EU | Association of Accredited Public Policy Advocates to the European Union


Correct me if I am wrong, is one Berlusconi not an MEP too?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio...Ongoing_trials



We are paying EUR 10k (yes - ten thousand EUR per month) (in 2017 money, before bonuses) to people who spend their lives talking.



Perhaps even benefit from the immigration Med crisis.



And when they get tired talking and evading the law, they will maybe stop a German flagged Human Aid vessel and claim your life vests do not have Italian certification. Then they will go and party with underage women and laugh the hell out of of our naivete.


I sound bitter. I am bitter. Things are wrong. And we are pretending to not know it. Because we are well of, well fed, and lazy.


I do not mean you and me. I mean we, the race.



Something there is bliss. The poet was right, again.


Yours,
barnakiel

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Franziska

(...)



I'd love to see the core EU with common values to get closer together and take more decisions and faster decisions. Unfortunately it seems it's not permissible though to form a core EU within the EU.


(...)

I do not see EU with common values happening. Ever.


Yes, I did share the same illusion. I lost mine during the Greek crisis - the one where Varoufakis played a big role. Varoufakis asked for Greece to step out of the EUR currency zone and return to drahma. He obtained the public mandat to do so (in a national referendum). He got kicked out of the government by people who prefer more money to more work.


Common values are not created by printing more money and stuffing it into the vaults of Spanish, Italian and Greek banks. Common values are created by not forming artificial constructs with known values being vastly different. And where the values do differ, we must agree to remove the ones which are less human, less open, less unjust.


They call it progress. Kaizen. From something less good to something better. NOT the opposite way.



Here in Las Palmas we have an amazing carnival. We have the best, the most beautiful Drag Queens decorated by the city mayor. We have gay and lesbian couples walking the streets holding hands.


Meanwhile Poland has towns which city councils declared LGBT free zones.


Good work, foresight and accountability may be valued in some countries, but in other countries having a good time, stress-free living and good food are the priorities.

I do not see EU with common values happening because we do not have common values throughout Europe - be it religious, social, political or economical values.

b.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Yes, I agree, but we as in the population of the EU elect the Parliament and part of the people in our population take and took these elections not seriously enough. They refrain from voting or vote for apparent idiots like B.

We need more EU not less. We need Pan European parties and we need to stop that stupid system of unanimous decision taking in Brussels. It keeps stopping progress again and again.

I'd love to see the core EU with common values to get closer together and take more decisions and faster decisions. Unfortunately it seems it's not permissible though to form a core EU within the EU.

In the current world our individual countries are to small to really be a big player as the unfortunate Brits will find out soon.
I am not a fan of Brexit but I do obviously accept their decision.
The other players like China, US, Russia and India are all very big and all have vested interests in ensuring that the EU does not get stronger by pulling together. Hence the guy in DC was so happy about Brexit.

Wow, what a thread digression :-)

I stayed out of this thus far. But you are living in a bubble supported by EU propaganda. The EU is a failed POLITICAL experiment.


Take Spain before the euro every person be they a subsistence farmer or a top flight lawyer went for "Menu de Dias" the introduction of the euro and the EU values imposed upon the country now means that for the majority this is now unaffordable and there is true poverty. Spain does not operate like northern Europe.


Similarly Italy, innovators of engineering are currently stifled by debt imposed by euro zone and the inability to devalue their currency. Italian banks are are not corporations the share holders are mostly individuals so a banking crisis in Italy would be far more devastating than in the rest of Europe.



Greece a work hard during the season and relax in the off season is similarly impacted by the northern European work ethic, the imposition of wage control and pension reforms.


Germany is a vast industrial country with an ageing population who need cheap young workers.



The UK is a small "area" with massive infrastructure costs and a technical services based economy, cheap uneducated immigrants are just a burden.


Sweden is a very liberal but non culturally diverse country where the impact and imposition of Germany's open flood gates policy has lead the resignations of entire community leaderships and real problems both social and economic.



France relies entirely on EU subsidies to support it's antiquated agricultural system while imposing a short working week and unsustainable pensions.


All this is paid for by the UK, the Nederlands and the euro bag man is Germany with Deutsche Bank now having serious problems.



You get the theme here, the European cultures are all different and the EU one size fits all policy and shipping MEPS to Strazbuorg every month at a cost that would support some African countries to satisfy the need for France to be at the seat of power is an example of why the EU will never work.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I stayed out of this thus far. But you are living in a bubble supported by EU propaganda. The EU is a failed POLITICAL experiment.


Take Spain before the euro every person be they a subsistence farmer or a top flight lawyer went for "Menu de Dias" the introduction of the euro and the EU values imposed upon the country now means that for the majority this is now unaffordable and there is true poverty. Spain does not operate like northern Europe.


Similarly Italy, innovators of engineering are currently stifled by debt imposed by euro zone and the inability to devalue their currency. Italian banks are are not corporations the share holders are mostly individuals so a banking crisis in Italy would be far more devastating than in the rest of Europe.



Greece a work hard during the season and relax in the off season is similarly impacted by the northern European work ethic, the imposition of wage control and pension reforms.


Germany is a vast industrial country with an ageing population who need cheap young workers.



The UK is a small "area" with massive infrastructure costs and a technical services based economy, cheap uneducated immigrants are just a burden.


Sweden is a very liberal but non culturally diverse country where the impact and imposition of Germany's open flood gates policy has lead the resignations of entire community leaderships and real problems both social and economic.



France relies entirely on EU subsidies to support it's antiquated agricultural system while imposing a short working week and unsustainable pensions.


All this is paid for by the UK, the Nederlands and the euro bag man is Germany with Deutsche Bank now having serious problems.



You get the theme here, the European cultures are all different and the EU one size fits all policy and shipping MEPS to Strazbuorg every month at a cost that would support some African countries to satisfy the need for France to be at the seat of power is an example of why the EU will never work.

Tupaia, so if the EU is as failed as you claim, what are the alternatives?

How would countries like Italy, Spain, Malta or Greece manage to deal with the migrant crisis?

The standart of living in these countries has risen drastically in the time they are members of the EU.
We need to work further on equalizing the standart of living in the EU, if we do not aim for that we will be have the internal labour migration forever.

The Brits are out, maybe you are one of them, I do not know, but you will face a very strong wind in your face for at least one if not two generations now that you are alone.

You do not need to pay anymore, but you do also lose access to a very big market without having any real alternatives. The trade deal with the US which Boris hopes for is nowhere near close, the exit deal with the EU is nowhere near settled and you will not get a deal without footing the open bill you still have with the EU.

The EU is sorry for the UK to leave, you are a part of Europe, geographically as well as culturally, but now that you have choosen to leave dont expect a preferrential treatment by the remaining EU.

The European countries are much to small to survive in a global economy by themselves. We all need a common market and we need to severely reduce the options for member countries to not participate in solutions agreed upon by majorities of members in a democratic fashion.

If we stop to believe in us, Europe will fail and become irrelevant on a global scale. We have only a small chance to solve the huge issues ahead, but if we do not pull our act together, it's guaranteed that we will fail and do so in a much faster way.

The biggest mistake of the EU was that it allowed to many new members to join in the vaccum after the iron curtain came down. I do understand why it happened, there was a huge risk that the eastern European countries would fail without becoming members, the standart of living over there where appauling in large parts of Eastern Europe in the 1990ies.
Secondly "the West" , driven by the US simply did not want to let the opportunity pass to integrate these countries into the "the West". Strategically that was was perceived to be of highest importance.
Still, it was a mistake.

If we stop believing in a (core) Europe we will certainly fail.
That is why have to believe in Europe and why we all should aim for it even if the outcome is uncertain. Better chase a dream than give up.

We in Cruisersforum are all chasing our individual dreams on different levels and we all overcome big problems while doing so. We should do the same as Europeans.

[GordMay]

The “Alan Kurdi”, a ship with 125 rescued refugees and migrants on board, reached the Italian island of Sardinia on Thursday, the aid organisation Sea-Eye said, adding: the fate of its survivors remains unclear.
The principle of the landing of survivors in the “nearest safe port”, enshrined in international maritime law, generally means Italy or Malta are expected to take in rescued survivors from Mediterranean crossings.
More than 600 refugees and migrants have perished this year, while attempting the Mediterranean crossing. Almost 50,000 have made the journey so far this year.

More:

ALAN KURDI anchors off Sardinia (Sept 24) ➥ https://sea-eye.org/en/alan-kurdi-anchors-off-sardinia/

ALAN KURDI sets course for France (Sept 23) ➥ https://sea-eye.org/en/alan-kurdi-se...se-for-france/

[Franziska]

And now imagine the outcry if a cruise liner sinks in the Med. And only few come to help.
Seems like white lives are currently more important than black lives....
But let's not open that discussion now....

Originally Posted by GordMay

The “Alan Kurdi”, a ship with 125 rescued refugees and migrants on board, reached the Italian island of Sardinia on Thursday, the aid organisation Sea-Eye said, adding: the fate of its survivors remains unclear.
The principle of the landing of survivors in the “nearest safe port”, enshrined in international maritime law, generally means Italy or Malta are expected to take in rescued survivors from Mediterranean crossings.
More than 600 refugees and migrants have perished this year, while attempting the Mediterranean crossing. Almost 50,000 have made the journey so far this year.

More:

ALAN KURDI anchors off Sardinia (Sept 24) ➥ https://sea-eye.org/en/alan-kurdi-anchors-off-sardinia/

ALAN KURDI sets course for France (Sept 23) ➥ https://sea-eye.org/en/alan-kurdi-se...se-for-france/