Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-09-2020, 13:31   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 20,383
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Clearly, then as now not all Americans agree with the Governments policies on immigration and are sympathetic to the illegals coming in from Mexico. However, now the European/EU outcry against immigration into Europe...EU is significant hence my point.

Well.


At 200 daily arrivals into Canary Islands, and the local government not sending those people immediately back, it would be surprising if the citizens did not ask where the money comes from, and what the long term consequences will be for the community.


200 per day x 30 days = 6 thousand a month = 70 thousand a year.


70 thousand of young unemployed men added to a population of about 1.4 million local people.


5% annual population growth, all young, unemployed, culturally alien, frustrated and surrounded by culture of excess.



An economy with 25% unemployment rate and - (minus) 15% GDP change cannot handle this.


A society at the brink of its own collapse cannot handle this.


This is only one spot - Canary Islands. Think of Gibraltar, Greece, Italy.


Not related to that drug dealing thing above, but then again today nothing is hanging in vacuum. All is connected. We are living in a hive, on a pile.


b.
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2020, 13:57   #32
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 2,493
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Well indeed.

The Canaries are also in a unique situation that they are heavily dependent on tourism and are as such very hard hit by the Corona crisis.
So under these extreme circumstances I can understand that the locals are upset. Same for the folks on the Greek Islands.

Those folks on the islands are suffering from the ignorance of the politicians in some countries in Europe who like to have only the good piece of the cake.
Germany took over 1million refugees and, is dealing with it reasonably well.
Some other countries are harvesting benefits in Brussels, but when it comes to distribute and treat the refugees fairly they block any humane deal.

Europe should stand together but unfortunately we do not get our act together in some questions, which is shameful, especially as it's carried out on the back of some members taters and the refugees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Well.


At 200 daily arrivals into Canary Islands, and the local government not sending those people immediately back, it would be surprising if the citizens did not ask where the money comes from, and what the long term consequences will be for the community.


200 per day x 30 days = 6 thousand a month = 70 thousand a year.


70 thousand of young unemployed men added to a population of about 1.4 million local people.


5% annual population growth, all young, unemployed, culturally alien, frustrated and surrounded by culture of excess.



An economy with 25% unemployment rate and - (minus) 15% GDP change cannot handle this.


A society at the brink of its own collapse cannot handle this.


This is only one spot - Canary Islands. Think of Gibraltar, Greece, Italy.


Not related to that drug dealing thing above, but then again today nothing is hanging in vacuum. All is connected. We are living in a hive, on a pile.


b.
Franziska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2020, 14:34   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 20,383
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post


(...)



Europe should stand together but unfortunately we do not get our act together in some questions, which is shameful, especially as it's carried out on the back of some members taters and the refugees.

Yes. It is too bad.


But it starts with the very idea of "to act".


While this means 'to act' in some parts in the EU, it means ' to eat' in others.


Spain is a place where we eat together. It is a great partying destination with warm friendly and hospitable people. It is really nice here. People are tolerant. The carnival is beyond words. Even I participate, I cold, boring Northerner.



Unfortunately, many a party ends in a bad headache. As we know from history classes.


This lack of acting is also what creates the drug dealing operations around Cadiz. Flying a heli over rice fields flashing a spot beam at cows is not acting.



Placing young African immigrants in hotels and giving them free Internet access is not acting either.


Both acts are mis-acting. And both are performed by these parts of the society that benefits from the situation.


barnakiel
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2020, 15:23   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 503
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Well that link/doc would get you nowhere as it's for Irish residents with an existing firearms certificate importing into Ireland - We have some of the most restrictive guns laws in Europe. What you would need is a transit license which you have to apply for and more than likely you would have to place the firearms into storage with the Police (Gardai) and then collect when you leave, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a weapon for defense!

I have nothing against firearms. Don't care if someone has one (legally) but I've never felt the need even after living in Boston for years. Never felt threatened enough to even think about it despite two break-ins at our house.

Each to their own but keep them in their country of origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
...

No idea why you are railing on against breaking the laws of places when you visit them with firearms. For Galway, Iíd merely have to fill out this form:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/non-eu...ndividual.docx

Note: Ireland is possibly the last place on earth I would feel the need to bring one anyway. Ha ha. Much like Canada.

...
B23iL23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2020, 15:49   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 5,405
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Quote:
Originally Posted by B23iL23 View Post
Well that link/doc would get you nowhere as it's for Irish residents with an existing firearms certificate importing into Ireland - We have some of the most restrictive guns laws in Europe. What you would need is a transit license which you have to apply for and more than likely you would have to place the firearms into storage with the Police (Gardai) and then collect when you leave, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a weapon for defense!

I have nothing against firearms. Don't care if someone has one (legally) but I've never felt the need even after living in Boston for years. Never felt threatened enough to even think about it despite two break-ins at our house.

Each to their own but keep them in their country of origin.
Joke is on you. Iím an Irish citizen so I can use it. Ha ha.

But assuming I wasnít, thatís all just fine. It doesnít defeat the purpose to leave the firearms with the local Gardai at all. Who needs firearms in port in Ireland? The danger there is as close up zero as it gets.

Youíd need them in the Straight of Gibraltar like the thread is about. So it still makes sense and is legal to have them for times when you need them.

Boston: not really a place you need them either. I agree. Sketchy and unsafe in many areas, but overall, doesnít warrant firearms. Especially at sea. You donít even need to lock up your dinghy once north of New York. There is a lot more honor the more north you go. Less thieves in the harbors. By the time you hit Maine, theyíre not only not stealing your dinghy, theyíre giving you their spare dinghy. Ha ha.

So we probably agree on more than we disagree.

Probably the only difference is I think itís ok to carry them for things like this thread.

I also agree laws should be followed
Chotu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2020, 15:54   #36
Registered User
 
chrisr's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Tasman 40' catamaran
Posts: 1,619
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Sir,


This is about Cadiz, Spain, NOT Cadiz, Texas.


If they are armed (some are, others not) they will take you down without any hesitation. They exercise on a regular basis, and the value of your life is no match to the value of their cargo.


There have never been any serious incidents here of traffickers killing sailors (other than the delivery crews of yachts moving the cargo). But if you want to start a new trend, then I suggest you do it back home where you live.


I live here and I do not want to hear of tourists shooting traffickers. Next time it can be me crossing Cadiz Bay. Why should I pay for your stupidity?


???


Take care. Avoid using guns. Avoid spreading your home attitudes thru the rest of the world. It is troubled enough as is.


Cheers,
b.
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG-20191106-WA0002.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	39.4 KB
ID:	224053



cheers,
__________________
"home is where the anchor drops"...back on lake mac to see family again as lockdowns being lifted... maintaining social distancing !
chrisr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2020, 19:33   #37
Registered User
 
AKA-None's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lake City MN
Boat: C&C 27 Mk III
Posts: 1,637
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

If you really donít like the immigration politics then fix the real problem of why people leave the place they come from.
__________________
Special knowledge can be a terrible disadvantage if it leads you too far along a path that you cannot explain anymore.
Frank Herbert 'Dune'
AKA-None is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2020, 03:20   #38
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 43,852
Images: 241
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

The European Union’s executive has proposed overhauling the bloc’s broken migration and asylum rules, seeking to end years of feuds and bitterness over the hundreds of thousands of people fleeing wars and poverty in the Middle East and Africa.
One of the most contentious elements of the plan, released on Wednesday, would impose a legal obligation on each state to host some refugees – something eastern nations including Poland and Hungary are against – as well as helping in other ways under “mandatory solidarity”.

European Commission: New Pact on Migration and Asylum

Q & A https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../qanda_20_1707

Fact Sheethttps://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info...-package_0.pdf

Migration and Asylum Packagehttps://ec.europa.eu/info/publicatio...lum-package_en
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2020, 05:24   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Irish Sea
Posts: 1,315
Images: 7
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

All she did was raising the paycheck for Erdogan as he requested for doing the dirty work. That indeed stopped most of the inflow for the moment (until the next "request").

Letting everyone in doesn't work as the third world is about 4 times as populous as North America and Europe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
There is far less factual outcry than what the man in D. C. tries to make you believe.

As Mrs. Merkel said "Wir schaffen das-we'll manage" that is actually what has happened and is happening right now.

The calm fact & science oriented approach of our chancellor dealt much better with the refugee crisis as well as the Corona crisis.

Personally I am not religious but still believe in the humanistic ideals.
As such I cherish that Mrs. Merkel honors also the "C" (Christian) in her parties name and is not doing so only by posing with a Bible. Neither does she make a difference between Muslims or Christians.
She is showing true leadership in the best way.

Still, maybe we should stop now. We will have to agree that we disagree I guess.
It's good to exchange point of views nevertheless.
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
GTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2020, 08:44   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 20,383
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA-None View Post
If you really donít like the immigration politics then fix the real problem of why people leave the place they come from.

Been to Morocco. Nothing needs fixing there.


Boats intercepted should be towed back to Morocco, where they came out of.


Immigrants landing should be sent back to Morocco, that's where they come from.


What kind of message are immigrants sending back home if you place them in a hotel apartment in South of Gran Canaria? Free food, vaccinations, Covid treatment, hot showers, best climate in the world and wifi.



I do not mean this applies to all EU or US places. But it applies locally where I live, in Canary Islands.


The problem is not here or in Marocco. It is in the Bruxelles, where the policies are decided and money is divided.


b.
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2020, 09:21   #41
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 2,493
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Well, you probably would have left them dying in a ditch.
Shame on you.

Guess any further discussion with folks like you is pointless might as well talk with a wall or fence instead...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTom View Post
All she did was raising the paycheck for Erdogan as he requested for doing the dirty work. That indeed stopped most of the inflow for the moment (until the next "request").

Letting everyone in doesn't work as the third world is about 4 times as populous as North America and Europe.
Franziska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2020, 10:20   #42
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 2,493
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Barnie, with all due respect, but sending them back to Morocco is not a cure but only a treatment for the symptoms.
The large portion of refugees does not come from Morocco and as such & linked with their desperation they will try again and again.

Europe must show much much more development support in the origin countries. This will cost a huge amount of cash, but is the only way to improve things to some degree.
Nice side effect would be that the Chinese are not turning Africa into a huge colony.

Apart from that we, as the West do need to be much more careful when we help to topple regimes. We have to have a plan as to what should follow suit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Been to Morocco. Nothing needs fixing there.


Boats intercepted should be towed back to Morocco, where they came out of.


Immigrants landing should be sent back to Morocco, that's where they come from.


What kind of message are immigrants sending back home if you place them in a hotel apartment in South of Gran Canaria? Free food, vaccinations, Covid treatment, hot showers, best climate in the world and wifi.



I do not mean this applies to all EU or US places. But it applies locally where I live, in Canary Islands.


The problem is not here or in Marocco. It is in the Bruxelles, where the policies are decided and money is divided.


b.
Franziska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2020, 12:22   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 20,383
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Barnie, with all due respect, but sending them back to Morocco is not a cure but only a treatment for the symptoms.
The large portion of refugees does not come from Morocco and as such & linked with their desperation they will try again and again.

Europe must show much much more development support in the origin countries. This will cost a huge amount of cash, but is the only way to improve things to some degree.
Nice side effect would be that the Chinese are not turning Africa into a huge colony.

Apart from that we, as the West do need to be much more careful when we help to topple regimes. We have to have a plan as to what should follow suit.

Franziska,


I cannot talk about the West. I do not live there. I live here.



The ones that arrive here are not desperate poor immigrants from a war (edited) torn territory. Let alone that when a territory is war torn, it is torn by their warring fathers.


Here, in Canary Islands, the arrivals are all young, fit, well fed African men (it is always men - how odd). The first thing they do on the dock is they pull out their smartphones and start calling their families in Africa.



What message are they sending back home? And what message should they be sending?


Canary Islands have no jobs for these men, no future for them. We are in an economy, repeat, with 50% unemployment in their age group, 25% unemployment across age groups ! (!!!)


Vide attached screendump - look at the unemployment rate in their age group. 50%



What happens to young, unemployed men, in places where drug trafficking is a de facto only life option, and choice?


I think we (the forum) had the same discussion when we talked about Somali pirates. Few become pirates (or drug dealers) out of the thrill. Many people do such things because there are no other things for them to do - to earn their living.


I am all pro-emigrats. I like diversity. I have friends from all ways of life, all continents and all orientations (political, and sexual). I want to be where I am because where I used to be it was homogenic, white and rich, clean and sterile. And, guess what, BORING.


This place, Canary Island, Spain - has neither tools nor means to accept 5% population growth a year - all of the 5% being young African males, unemployed, and without any hopes of employment.


Not acting now is asking for events we could recently see in Lesvos, Calais and many other places. Letting them arrive in an ever increasing flow IS not acting.



If we do care about those people (which I do) - we should stop their uncontrolled inflow NOW.


Today 11 pateras alone - 200 more visitors. But the day is not over yet.



We are talking here about odd behaviour of a powerful rib in the Bay of Cadiz. Likely related to drug dealing and trafficking operations that are NOT being controlled by Spanish authorities.


But I do not see the world as a function of abstract, detached concepts.


Unemployment, inaction, immigration, hope, hopelessness, piracy, drug dealing and hunger. It is all related and then related to everything else.


I cannot close my eyes and say: No, problem, have them coming. We owe them.


No. We do not.


We should be helping African countries because this is the right thing to do, not because they are keeping us in check by flooding us with young male Africans.



Yours,

barnakiel
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	unemployment Canary Islands.png.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	80.5 KB
ID:	224100  
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2020, 13:01   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Irish Sea
Posts: 1,315
Images: 7
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Well indeed.

The Canaries are also in a unique situation that they are heavily dependent on tourism and are as such very hard hit by the Corona crisis.
So under these extreme circumstances I can understand that the locals are upset. Same for the folks on the Greek Islands.

Those folks on the islands are suffering from the ignorance of the politicians in some countries in Europe who like to have only the good piece of the cake.
Germany took over 1million refugees and, is dealing with it reasonably well.
Some other countries are harvesting benefits in Brussels, but when it comes to distribute and treat the refugees fairly they block any humane deal.

Europe should stand together but unfortunately we do not get our act together in some questions, which is shameful, especially as it's carried out on the back of some members taters and the refugees.
Shame on me of course, where is your Maths?? You take one on your boat, then a second, a third... - you'll run out of space very quickly just like the Canaries or the Greek islands. And no, you can't just offload them to your neighbor's boat letting them solving and financing the problem, you have to manage your own space. Question of time when the rest of this small continent runs out of space and face the very same problems as Gran Canaria or Lesbos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Well, you probably would have left them dying in a ditch.
Shame on you.

Guess any further discussion with folks like you is pointless might as well talk with a wall or fence instead...
Actually the Turks, paid by Germany are leaving them in the ditch on the Syrian border - btw, most are real refugees there unlike in Western Africa.

The problem has to be solved locally, where these people come from. Stop the wars, educate the locals not to breed 8 when the available water and food can only support 2, liberate them from corrupt regimes, pay their work fairly and so on. Taking the young and skilled part of the population only deepens the misery of these countries.
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
GTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-09-2020, 13:25   #45
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 2,493
Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Hey,

I think in the core we are much on the same line.

I do fully understand your concerns regarding the Canaries.

Why is Madrid not helping the islands? Possibly because a migrant there is one less on the mainland and the islands are politically unimportant. Similar in Greece. Why is Brussels not helping Madrid or Athens?
How can we have countries amongst the EU who flat out deny any participation in how to solve the issue.
In my eyes those countries deserve more and more to be kicked out.
Shame the EU grew far to fast and no-one took time for consolidation.

We can only stop the migration in the home countries.
We must engage much more in getting these countries fixed by investing in their education systems, health care systems and similar.
It will be enormously expensive, but what other option is there.
We have to respect their culture over there instead of forcing them to simply use our political systems and values.
Than and only than will it be less attractive for those people to leave.

Why are only men coming?
Because the trip is highly dangerous and partly because of their traditional gender perception and because it's factual men who have a higher survival rate on these long dangerous trips.

Where we may differ (but I am not sure, I suspect perhaps even not), anyone in an unseaworthy on the high seas must not be allowed to drown.

I am all for destroying the boats of the traffickers and cutting their finance from drug trafficking as well.
Those thugs who tried to board the boat would have to be punished and not be let allowed to flee.
Regarding criminal behavior of pirates or criminal refugees our legislation has far to many loopholes.
You misbehave, you're out, no discussion.

"Peaceful" refugees from war torn countries need save havens and only rich countries like ours can provide those.
Maybe these save havens can be created in Northern Africa under a real and intense supervision of the EU and UN.
But they must have a basic infrastructure and also very tight security control. You do drugs or similar you're out.
These camps need to be humane at least and not terribly overpopulated like Moira.

I do understand that this is all very very complicated and we can hardly change it. Still we should always remember that one day it might be us who are the refugees.

Imagine, there would suddenly be a Civil War in one of our countries and we would have to flee for our lives. What than?

Best regards,

Franziska


Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Franziska,


I cannot talk about the West. I do not live there. I live here.



The ones that arrive here are not desperate poor immigrants from a war (edited) torn territory. Let alone that when a territory is war torn, it is torn by their warring fathers.


Here, in Canary Islands, the arrivals are all young, fit, well fed African men (it is always men - how odd). The first thing they do on the dock is they pull out their smartphones and start calling their families in Africa.



What message are they sending back home? And what message should they be sending?


Canary Islands have no jobs for these men, no future for them. We are in an economy, repeat, with 50% unemployment in their age group, 25% unemployment across age groups ! (!!!)


Vide attached screendump - look at the unemployment rate in their age group. 50%



What happens to young, unemployed men, in places where drug trafficking is a de facto only life option, and choice?


I think we (the forum) had the same discussion when we talked about Somali pirates. Few become pirates (or drug dealers) out of the thrill. Many people do such things because there are no other things for them to do - to earn their living.


I am all pro-emigrats. I like diversity. I have friends from all ways of life, all continents and all orientations (political, and sexual). I want to be where I am because where I used to be it was homogenic, white and rich, clean and sterile. And, guess what, BORING.


This place, Canary Island, Spain - has neither tools nor means to accept 5% population growth a year - all of the 5% being young African males, unemployed, and without any hopes of employment.


Not acting now is asking for events we could recently see in Lesvos, Calais and many other places. Letting them arrive in an ever increasing flow IS not acting.



If we do care about those people (which I do) - we should stop their uncontrolled inflow NOW.


Today 11 pateras alone - 200 more visitors. But the day is not over yet.



We are talking here about odd behaviour of a powerful rib in the Bay of Cadiz. Likely related to drug dealing and trafficking operations that are NOT being controlled by Spanish authorities.


But I do not see the world as a function of abstract, detached concepts.


Unemployment, inaction, immigration, hope, hopelessness, piracy, drug dealing and hunger. It is all related and then related to everything else.


I cannot close my eyes and say: No, problem, have them coming. We owe them.


No. We do not.


We should be helping African countries because this is the right thing to do, not because they are keeping us in check by flooding us with young male Africans.



Yours,

barnakiel
Franziska is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Gibraltar

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Article "Pirates 'massacre' Guyana fishermen off Suriname coast" Paul L Emergency, Disaster and Distress 11 13-08-2018 09:21
Yacht "Bright" missing between Azores and Gibraltar. 44'cruisingcat Emergency, Disaster and Distress 24 16-05-2018 14:33
"funny things" floating 20 miles E of Gibraltar YesIsail General Sailing Forum 70 23-01-2017 07:35
There are pirates, and there are pirates... Amgine Cruising News & Events 24 21-01-2009 19:47

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:07.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.