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Old 25-09-2020, 07:53   #61
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Well. It all just complex.


And we all know the proverb : "same actions, same results".


The actions done this far were wrong then.


If we want to see a change, we need to do things differently in the future.


No, I do not know how. But I know repeating same old mistakes is only creating more harm and frustration to everybody.



To curb drug trafficking, to manage immigration, to elect who and how governs us from the Bruxelles.


A viable alternative is to just stop pretending we are moving towards coherence while everything is showing we are falling apart.


Your Canarian reporter,
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Old 25-09-2020, 11:50   #62
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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Tupaia, so if the EU is as failed as you claim, what are the alternatives?

Independent sovereign countries.


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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
How would countries like Italy, Spain, Malta or Greece manage to deal with the migrant crisis?

They wouldn't need to because they would no longer be the doorway to countries with generous welfare rewards. Migrants would be as impoverished there as they would at home and there wouldn't be Brussels forcing them to comply with Europe wide rules and be able to plice their own borders.


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The standart of living in these countries has risen drastically in the time they are members of the EU.
We need to work further on equalizing the standart of living in the EU, if we do not aim for that we will be have the internal labour migration forever.

The standard of living has only risen in northern European terms, you are measuring this by your standards. The ability of Greece to devalue the drachma meant 99% of the population who lived within the country and within their means, now they just have debt.


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The Brits are out, maybe you are one of them, I do not know, but you will face a very strong wind in your face for at least one if not two generations now that you are alone.
You do not need to pay anymore, but you do also lose access to a very big market without having any real alternatives. The trade deal with the US which Boris hopes for is nowhere near close, the exit deal with the EU is nowhere near settled and you will not get a deal without footing the open bill you still have with the EU

You really should start to be more sceptical about what you read in the press and looking at the facts. The UK does need a deal Germany, Nederlands and France definitely do.



"The share of UK imports accounted for by the EU fell from 58% in 2002 to 51% in 2019. The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£72 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £23 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£95 billion on trade in goods."

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The EU is sorry for the UK to leave, you are a part of Europe, geographically as well as culturally, but now that you have chosen to leave dont expect a preferential treatment by the remaining EU.


You just don't get it the EEC was about trade the EU is about political and cultural domination. The politicians will argue at infinitum but the truth of the matter is that trade will continue regardless Germany want's to sell its cars and the UK it financial services. WTO is a trade agreement accepted by the rest of the world most countries choose to have individual trade agreements because it is beneficial to BOTH parties.


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The European countries are much to small to survive in a global economy by themselves. We all need a common market and we need to severely reduce the options for member countries to not participate in solutions agreed upon by majorities of members in a democratic fashion.

There is no requirement for a common market the world trades on the open market.


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If we stop to believe in us, Europe will fail and become irrelevant on a global scale. We have only a small chance to solve the huge issues ahead, but if we do not pull our act together, it's guaranteed that we will fail and do so in a much faster way.

Get over it the EU has failed. We should celebrate the differences between individual nations.


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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
The biggest mistake of the EU was that it allowed to many new members to join in the vaccum after the iron curtain came down. I do understand why it happened, there was a huge risk that the eastern European countries would fail without becoming members, the standart of living over there where appauling in large parts of Eastern Europe in the 1990ies.

This was Germany's guilt after the east/west wall fell. Poland is a proud nation why should it wish to give up it's subservience to the soviet union to replace it with subservience to the eu.

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Secondly "the West" , driven by the US simply did not want to let the opportunity pass to integrate these countries into the "the West". Strategically that was was perceived to be of highest importance.
Still, it was a mistake.


There you have it in a nutshell the eu is not integrated it is a political construct akin to the Soviet Union it has no basis or foundation commercial or economic. Strategically the UK represents 49% of European defence along with France 49% and 2% by others. Germany felt it was strategically expedient not to have poor ex-soviet nations on it borders but was not willing to pay it's fair share of the European defence budget.


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If we stop believing in a (core) Europe we will certainly fail.
That is why have to believe in Europe and why we all should aim for it even if the outcome is uncertain. Better chase a dream than give up.

It has failed that is why Britain left. My best guess would be the next exit will be Sweden followed by Germany ditching the euro it's banking system is already at breaking point. Suggest you chose carefully which countries euros you have in you pocket over the next few years. And yes euro notes are identifiable by country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
We in Cruisersforum are all chasing our individual dreams on different levels and we all overcome big problems while doing so. We should do the same as Europeans.

We should all chase our dreams and be proud of who and what we are, learn from others and our history.


Furthermore I don't see what any of this has to do with the particular pirate, non migrant related, incident off of Cadiz.
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Old 25-09-2020, 12:45   #63
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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Originally Posted by Tupaia View Post


(...)



Poland is a proud nation


(...)



Of many wrong things though. Homophobia, xenophobia and nationalism are an explosive mixture.


Europe learned this lesson long ago. Some nations seem to suffer from memory loss though.



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Old 26-09-2020, 08:28   #64
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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Of many wrong things though. Homophobia, xenophobia and nationalism are an explosive mixture.

Europe learned this lesson long ago. Some nations seem to suffer from memory loss though.
Afraid far more phobiae are coming soon with the inflow: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54302337
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Old 26-09-2020, 09:41   #65
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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Afraid far more phobiae are coming soon with the inflow: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54302337

Maybe. But by now we have ventured far far off that high powered dinghy in Cadiz Bay.



I think we want to talk orca's attacks now.


You may have read Spanish auth introduced a no-go zone around the area where the orcas inhabit.



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Old 27-09-2020, 08:17   #66
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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Maybe. But by now we have ventured far far off that high powered dinghy in Cadiz Bay.



I think we want to talk orca's attacks now.


You may have read Spanish auth introduced a no-go zone around the area where the orcas inhabit.
Must be drugged orcas
good point!
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Old 28-09-2020, 06:54   #67
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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Originally Posted by B23iL23 View Post
Years back a cruiser in the med waved a weapon when he didn't like how close another fishing boat got to him. Didn't fire the weapon but it was not declared.

Couple of days later he was visited, a search done, a hand gun recovered. He spent some time in prison, his yacht was confiscated and sold off, he was put on a customs/immigration watch list, and he was kicked out of the country when they were done with him.

Your right to bear arms stops at YOUR countrys' 12 mile limit.
You must learn that when approached by pirates, they have the law on their side.
You must surrender all of your valuables, become a hostage for a year or two, and die if they wish. You must not defend yourself. That is the law.
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Old 28-09-2020, 06:55   #68
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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Originally Posted by B_Hunter45 View Post
is one allowed to shoot individuals who try to board without permission, not when they escape, when they actually try to board?
Despite what other people say on this forum, piracy (for that is what it is) and high potential for loss of your life would be mitigating factors if you used lethal force to defend your boat and yourself. even in British waters and British jurisdiction, appropriate force is allowed to chase them off and if they have already boarded, appropriate action up to and including lethal force is allowed.
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Old 28-09-2020, 06:58   #69
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

The drugs trade has been severely damaged recently in La Línea in Spain. It was out of control and the ribs were landing faster than the customs boat could get there. They even had radar and refuelling in the straits. Over 500 police and Guardia Civil were brought in the drugs gangs were eventually broken up and their control over the town was over. It is likely that the ribs mentioned were Spanish as the Moroccans do not have that kind of money and do not normally transport drugs or people smuggling themselves. On the other hand maybe they were now out of work and a bit of piracy seemed like a good idea. There was a documentary series made about it.
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Old 28-09-2020, 07:10   #70
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

I agree this must have been scary - but so is a storm or waterspout at sea. An armed helicopter arrived in 10 minutes. Seems like a good outcome.

It would have been folly to pull a gun in this case -much less use it. There was no violence. The RIB never touched the boat or board. The pirates did not appear to have guns - much less shot. No one boarded. And all evidence is that this was an attempted robbery. The use of deadly force when your life is not threatened will usually land you in jail - even in the US.

Here's a US guy who is in jail for 20 years because he shot someone over an argument about a parking space. He tried to argue self defense under a ridiculous Florida law known as "stand your ground" the he "feared for his life". Didn't work.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/stand-grou...ry?id=66182264
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Old 28-09-2020, 07:33   #71
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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Drug dealers. Mistook the cat for a boat that was to offload the cargo.

They go up the Gudalquivir and offload in the rice-fields.


I may be wrong, but it sounds like a stupid mistake by the traffickers. Perhaps there were two cats in that anchorage and the other one had the cargo they were after.


Another option is they hugged the cat to remain off the radars. That's a common practice. The military looking at the AIS, they see a proper German cat. But just next to it powers a rib loaded with hash. The rib has no AIS and the cat blocks the radar echo.


Normal tricks in those waters. You have clearly never navigated the Guadalquivir, eh?


Run to African coast because they know a Spanish heli will not follow.



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pretty presumptuous comment I'd say
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Old 28-09-2020, 07:40   #72
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

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No thankfully. You'd probably end up doing a very long stint in a prison somewhere for that.
So, if your life is in danger, you just have to stand by and hope they don't beat you up or kill you? Not allowed to defend your home?
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Old 28-09-2020, 07:54   #73
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

Oh that's a loaded question..

So that comment of mine was in relation to "is one allowed to shoot individuals who try to board without permission, not when they escape, when they actually try to board?"

In most EU countries if someone breaks into your home or boards your boat you can't take out a weapon a shoot them. You always have to justify your actions and use appropriate force. If someone threatens you with a soggy noodle as a weapon and you use a gun, you are going to be in big trouble. If you didn't have a license for that weapon that you just used then you're likely going to get charged for that also, which could mean doing some jail time.

Just because they board your boat doesn't mean they want to kill you - they could just be looking for a spare cigarette!

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So, if your life is in danger, you just have to stand by and hope they don't beat you up or kill you? Not allowed to defend your home?
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Old 28-09-2020, 08:20   #74
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

I actually find it hard to believe or at best comprehend the motive,* I live in Gib, yep- I've seen plenty of drug runs in La Linea, abandoned*ribs floating off the coast or in the beach and immigrants disembarking*off the beach, but really there would be no need or logic in stealing a Lagoon. (too slow)
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Old 28-09-2020, 08:41   #75
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Re: "Pirates" off Gibraltar

You try to board my vessel after I make it clear to bug off and you will be extremely sorry you picked the wrong vessel to mess with. I am not risking a hostage situation, or harm to my family.
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