Inboard engines and a changing world

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by skenn_ie

I don't think any rational person considers that battery or solar power will be a serious contender in long-distance transportation in the near future. It can be used for short trips, particularly in daylight hours. However, we should try to reduce our power use, on land and at sea. Even if you discount Global Warming, I, for one, want to breath clean air and drink clean water.

my boat is powered by the sun its called a sailboat.

[a64pilot]

Nothing would be as attractive price wise if you included all the “externalities” as your calling them.
How much should a Big Mac cost with health care figured in, $50? What about a big gulp 64 oz sugary cola?

Bottle of liquor?

Or for that matter how about EV’s with all the damage from rare Earth mining?

Even riding a horse has consequences

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Even riding a horse has consequences

that's pure horse hockey and road apples

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Nothing would be as attractive price wise if you included all the “externalities” as your calling them.
How much should a Big Mac cost with health care figured in, $50? What about a big gulp 64 oz sugary cola?

Bottle of liquor?

Or for that matter how about EV’s with all the damage from rare Earth mining?

Even riding a horse has consequences

Well, the point is that in many cases, externalities can be quantified and compared. If a particular product has some significant downsides to its heavy use, but we choose to ignore them (in the price or otherwise)... kind of a subsidy.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by skenn_ie

I don't think any rational person considers that battery or solar power will be a serious contender in long-distance transportation in the near future. It can be used for short trips, particularly in daylight hours. However, we should try to reduce our power use, on land and at sea. Even if you discount Global Warming, I, for one, want to breath clean air and drink clean water.

Yes, and even though EV’s are very new, it’s coming to light that the worst thing you can do to the battery is fast charge it (duh, I wonder how long that took to figure out) so you really should only charge at home.

What bothers me is that VW has decided not to import into the US their what looks to be a fine little efficient car that can carry four adults and baggage, the ID3.
They realize there is no market, they figure they could only sell 100,000, but they will import the ESUV, they figure the market for the larger inefficient vehicle to be 4 or 5 million.
https://electrek.co/2019/12/13/vw-no...us-demand-low/

[B23iL23]

Originally Posted by skenn_ie

I don't think any rational person considers that battery or solar power will be a serious contender in long-distance transportation in the near future. It can be used for short trips, particularly in daylight hours. However, we should try to reduce our power use, on land and at sea. Even if you discount Global Warming, I, for one, want to breath clean air and drink clean water.

Well I drive on battery only from London to South of France/Spain every couple of weeks day and night - is that classed as a short trip?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Well I drive on battery only from London to South of France/Spain every couple of weeks day and night - is that classed as a short trip?

How do you recharge when you do?
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/e...y-degradation/

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Intangible Drilling Costs Deduction (26 U.S. Code § 263. Active)

Percentage Depletion (26 U.S. Code § 613. Active)

Credit for Clean Coal Investment Internal Revenue Code § 48A (Active) and 48B (Inactive).

Nonconventional Fuels Tax Credit (Internal Revenue Code § 45.

Last In, First Out Accounting (26 U.S. Code § 472. Active).

Foreign Tax Credit (26 U.S. Code § 901. Active).

Master Limited Partnerships (Internal Revenue Code § 7704. Indirect. Active).

Domestic Manufacturing Deduction (IRC §199. Indirect. Inactive).



https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fac...societal-costs

These tax code provisions result in more net revenue to the government. Thus they are not subsidies.

If oil and gas production stopped today the world would plunge into chaos and a huge depression much worse that the 1930’s. Government tax revenue would plummet by more than 50%. Billions of people would starve and die within 6 months. And hundreds of millions more every year thereafter. What are the “externalities” of that?

Oil and gas is all that sustains the present day standard of living. The idea that oil and gas is a net detriment to society is crazy. Oil and gas subsidizes everything you do even giving you the ability to contribute to the conversation here in your home or plastic boat. We would be traveling in leaky wooden boats with cotton sails and hemp rigging without oil and gas. The notion we are worse off for using oil and gas is just nutty.

[B23iL23]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

How do you recharge when you do?

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/e...y-degradation/

Have the car almost 4 years (Tesla model X) and when I got it first it had a range of 250 miles. 4 years later I still get 250 miles.

In London my commute is 20 miles a day so I charge every 2 weeks while I'm doing the shopping.

On the road trips I use the super chargers and at the house in France I have a home charger which fills it overnight if needed.

Only difference in range I get is when I swap in the 22 inch wheels. Lose about 10% due to the extra weight and rolling resistance (winter vs summer tires)

So I'm not seeing any degradation yet and probably won't see any until maybe 6/7 years but I don't use the super chargers every day so maybe not.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

If oil and gas production stopped today...

Who mentioned doing that?

The notion we are worse off for using oil and gas is just nutty.

Nobody is saying that either. It's been very useful.

However... oil and gas are non-renewable resources that have many uses besides just burning it as quickly as we can... except that too many still wanna burn it as quickly as we can. Now - THAT'S nutty.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Nobody is saying that. It's been very useful.

However... oil and gas are non-renewable resources that have many uses besides just burning it as quickly as we can... except that too many still wanna burn it as quickly as we can. Now - THAT'S nutty.

Nobody is saying that oil is destroying the planet? That’s exactly what many people believe. You’re saying they weren’t told that, they just made it up? Get serious, that’s exactly the doomsday message preached at us today.

Actually, oil and gas is plentiful and we will never run out. As we use oil and gas to fund our new technology we will find ways to get even more energy from fusion and other yet unimagined methods. But oil and gas are the only means we have of building a better society where everyone can have a high standard of living.

A sure fire way to doom us to living in caves is to stop using oil and gas before we develop cheaper and safer energy sources. All of this hand wringing about oil and gas and the unfunded externalities is useless. We need to use today’s low cost energy to build better technology for tomorrow that costs even less. That’s the way to actually save the planet. Taxing poor people to enable charlatans like Elon Musk to make billions and produce nothing of long term value is the real crime here.

It all comes down to whether we believe humans are really smart and can continuously improve society or humans are stupid and greedy and there is only doom ahead. Either one is true depending on what we teach our children and choose to believe ourselves.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Who mentioned doing that?

Nobody is saying that either. It's been very useful.

However... oil and gas are non-renewable resources that have many uses besides just burning it as quickly as we can... except that too many still wanna burn it as quickly as we can. Now - THAT'S nutty.

I'm not a total nut but I won't burn it any slower than necessary either.

[a64pilot]

I agree that oil is too valuable a resource to just burn it, same for forests too.
However this cry of we must covert now to an all electric transportation system is even crazier, there isn’t nearly enough electrical power to do so, not even close.
So we need to increase the “green” electrical generating capacity and shift as it comes on line, that’s gong to take decades, even at an emergency pace.
It to me makes no sense at all with the desire for electric trucks and SUV’s. For the same amount of batteries and electrical power we could have twice as many efficient vehicles, but we won’t do that, we want our SUV’s but we can act as if we are saving the world because they are electric.
But the truth of it is that fossil fuels are burned to generate that electricity, and only fossil fuels can increase electrical generation in a short time, the rest takes years at least.

In the US 1/3 of all CO2 produced is produced generating electricity.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=77&t=11

Emissions of private vehicles could easily be cut in half and fuel use also cut in half, easily without EV’s and no need for burning more fossil fuels to generate more electricity.
Just switch to efficient vehicles is all it would take, sure phase in EV’s after we stop burning fossil fuels to make electricity. To not do so would be illogical, but then EV SUV’s are illogical and that’s where we are headed.

Takes us to boats, electric propulsion without a large Diesel generator isn’t realistic and a Diesel generator solves nothing.
So learn to sail better, spend your EV conversion bucks on good light wind sails, that is the way to not burn fossil fuels

[Chotu]

Driving today I was thinking of an interesting philosophical and physics related point.

I was at a very busy intersection watching all the cars going by me in the other direction. Tired. Zoning out a bit at the light.

I realized what is an important thing about transportation, as it currently exists. It's horribly inefficient. The vast VAST amount of energy consumed moving people around isn't even movie people around. It's moving metal around!!

If you look at a highway, it's supposed to be a way to move people around from point a to point b. But there is relatively little human flesh being moved. It's all metal flowing by in that river.

That's a fundamental problem.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Nobody is saying that oil is destroying the planet? That’s exactly what many people believe. You’re saying they weren’t told that, they just made it up? Get serious, that’s exactly the doomsday message preached at us today.

This would go a whole lot better if you responded to what I actually said...

But yes the current and projected rate of fossil fuel consumption seems to be harming the planet.

Actually, oil and gas is plentiful and we will never run out.

Your turn to get serious...

A sure fire way to doom us to living in caves is to stop using oil and gas before we develop cheaper and safer energy sources.

Well...Duh. Another thing that nobody's asking to do. Where do you come up with this stuff?