Cat capsizes off Croatia

[SV Tom Crean]

Not sure what happened. Some say they didn’t reef in time when a big squall hit but i have my doubts it would turn a cruising cat over. 2 adults, 2 kids rescued so all good.

Not being a cat man , I’ve no idea what type it is.

[Franziska]

It's an Outremer. Cruising cat, but leaning to the performance side.
Center boards, one of them seems retracted (might have fallen back).

A big squall can surely flip a cat if it's not reefed appropriately or if it comes out of seemingly nowhere (downdraft/white squall/microburst).

How was the general weather around there? Hot? Humid? Cloud?
How much time between event & rescue/photos?

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by Franziska

It's an Outremer. Cruising cat, but leaning to the performance side.
Center boards, one of them seems retracted (might have fallen back).

A big squall can surely flip a cat if it's not reefed appropriately or if it comes out of seemingly nowhere (downdraft/white squall/microburst).

How was the general weather around there? Hot? Humid? Cloud?
How much time between event & rescue/photos?

An Outremer (it’s a 45 I believe) is a big performance cat. Scares me that it could be flipped when not being pushed hard. It was windy yesterday but waves not so bad.

[ejs]

Where was it? There was a squall west of Korcula reported by a fellow cruiser yesterday in Pakleni Is. That went from calm to 49 knots in 2 minutes. We had lightning but only about 30 knots there, you could see it coming, but it came up fast .
-E

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by ejs

Where was it? There was a squall west of Korcula reported by a fellow cruiser yesterday in Pakleni Is. That went from calm to 49 knots in 2 minutes. We had lightning but only about 30 knots there, you could see it coming, but it came up fast .
-E

South of Olib island, just north of Zadar.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

An Outremer (it’s a 45 I believe) is a big performance cat. Scares me that it could be flipped when not being pushed hard. It was windy yesterday but waves not so bad.

it obviously was pushed hard. That’s why it’s upside down. Lol these things can happen if you have a lot of sail area, a light boat and you are not ready for whatever changes in wind take place. You will almost never see a catamaran like that flip from wave action. It’s always from wind.

mine runs the risk of the same thing happening.

it was round escape hatches look like they came in pretty handy though. Makes me think adding a pair of those might be OK after all.

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by Chotu

it obviously was pushed hard. That’s why it’s upside down. Lol these things can happen if you have a lot of sail area, a light boat and you are not ready for whatever changes in wind take place. You will almost never see a catamaran like that flip from wave action. It’s always from wind.

mine runs the risk of the same thing happening.

it was round escape hatches look like they came in pretty handy though. Makes me think adding a pair of those might be OK after all.

Nope. Going out on my previous boat with 10 crew up and hoisting the kite in 25+ kts was pushing hard. This was a a couple with 2 kids out cruising and apparently got caught in a squall and couldn’t dump sail and de-power fast enough, and the boat flipped.

Most cruising cats would probably lose the rig before flipping but this one was light and a big sail plan. Makes me wonder whether these performance cats are suitable for cruising families who may not be as attentive as they should.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Nope. Going out on my previous boat with 10 crew up and hoisting the kite in 25+ kts was pushing hard. This was a a couple with 2 kids out cruising and apparently got caught in a squall and couldn’t dump sail and de-power fast enough, and the boat flipped.

Most cruising cats would probably lose the rig before flipping but this one was light and a big sail plan. Makes me wonder whether these performance cats are suitable for cruising families who may not be as attentive as they should.

Yup. (Direct response to nope)

If it wasn’t pushed hard, it wouldn’t be upside down. Obviously there was too much sail area for the wind conditions. No matter what they were. Therefore it was pushed too hard. Pretty cut and dry. I don’t have any idea how you can argue that it wasn't pushed too hard. It was pushed right over.

Any cat that would lose the rig before flipping over has rotted rigging or was not built and designed properly.

But, with the rest of your post I certainly do agree. Taking your family for a spin in a Lamborghini or other extremely high powered vehicle can be pretty risky. You would have to have a lot of driving experience and know how to handle various conditions such as wet roads and patches of sand. You would probably also need to know what happens when you drop the accelerator to the floor. These boats are what I would consider sports machines rather than simple relaxing boats to plod along with. More like the super car that I am making a comparison with. They require attention or massive over reefing if you want to relax a bit.

[smj]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Nope. Going out on my previous boat with 10 crew up and hoisting the kite in 25+ kts was pushing hard. This was a a couple with 2 kids out cruising and apparently got caught in a squall and couldn’t dump sail and de-power fast enough, and the boat flipped.

Most cruising cats would probably lose the rig before flipping but this one was light and a big sail plan. Makes me wonder whether these performance cats are suitable for cruising families who may not be as attentive as they should.

I believe most cruising cats losing their rig before flipping is an old wives tale.
To many variables to consider to make this wives tale true. Knowing how much wind it would take to turtle a certain design. Knowing the strength needed in the rigging to break right before flipping. Knowing how much payload each individual boat will be carrying. And knowing what the wave conditions would be.
Which would be more dangerous, having a cat close to capsize and relying on quick thinking and reactions by the crew? Or having masts fall over in the same scenario?

[more]

OUTREMER 45 - OKTANT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4JWSzNTZLU

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Nope. Going out on my previous boat with 10 crew up and hoisting the kite in 25+ kts was pushing hard. This was a a couple with 2 kids out cruising and apparently got caught in a squall and couldn’t dump sail and de-power fast enough, and the boat flipped.

Most cruising cats would probably lose the rig before flipping but this one was light and a big sail plan. Makes me wonder whether these performance cats are suitable for cruising families who may not be as attentive as they should.

Friend with a Lagoon 57 was told by Lagoon it could go over in 50kts, so I don't disbelieve this could go over in the same amount of wind, especially if at just the right angle and timing wrt wave action helping the overturn moment.

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by smj

I believe most cruising cats losing their rig before flipping is an old wives tale.
To many variables to consider to make this wives tale true. Knowing how much wind it would take to turtle a certain design. Knowing the strength needed in the rigging to break right before flipping. Knowing how much payload each individual boat will be carrying. And knowing what the wave conditions would be.
Which would be more dangerous, having a cat close to capsize and relying on quick thinking and reactions by the crew? Or having masts fall over in the same scenario?

I always figured it was more physics more than by design. The heavier hulls, more loaded with gear and tankage would just tip the scales in favour of the rig parting first. Who knows?

[toolbar]

We are currently in the same area. Sailed past Olib the night before this happened (if it flipped yesterday). There were a bunch of thunderstorms passing through in the night, and also the next morning. I was constantly monitoring their movements with Radar over the Adriatic - luckily they passed us, we didn't see more than 25 knots that night.

Yesterday we spent the day anchoring near Susak about 20 miles north of Olib. It was very calm there, but we heard/saw a number of thunderstorms just missing the island. Forecasts for the area varied wildy between the different models some showing 45 knots others only 10 knots.

I hope they can recover from that shock.

Paul

[Tin Tin]

don't you all realize that the open escape hatch shows it must have failed and all the water came in and made it capsize, and then when upside down all the water went out the salon door.



Seriously this is why escape hatches exist so the little kids do not have to hold their breath and swim underwater in an upside down salon filled with table cloths cushions and the rest of the stuff kept in there, at night.

[fxykty]

Wind gust most likely, no wave action needed.

One of the static stability indicators for catamarans is the KSI - Kelsall Stability Indicator, which estimates the wind speed at 90*AWA that could capsize a cat with full main and jib set. For performance cats it’s lower, particularly those with large base sail areas. A new generation Outremer 45 KSI = 24.5 knots while a Lagoon 440 KSI = 44 knots. Happily, I note that my performance cat has KSI = 38.6 knots.

There is certainly less room for error when sailing a lighter cat with a larger rig. Reefing to the gusts, and accepting that you may be plodding along between squalls, is the price you pay. Or, vigilance and the knowledge of what to do when a big gust hits.

And unfortunately many people buying performance cats don’t understand how to handle them for dynamic responses to big gusts. Sailing a dinghy cat that is prone to capsizing like a Hobie 16 is one way to learn, but is not widespread. The responses are different to a monohull.
- Heading upwind - ease sheets and head up
- Close reaching to broad reaching - bear away hard to counteract the heeling force to near dead downwind, do not ease the main sheet (easing adds power, which you don’t want), jib can be eased during the turn and furled away once heading downwind
- Dead downwind - hold on, do not ease the main sheet, jib can be furled away

Systems such as UpSideUp should include wind angle so that they do the right thing when loads become dangerous.