Cat capsizes off Croatia

[CatNewBee]

Definitely not a Outremar, something small, looks like DIY, not a production cat of the big brands. Flat bottom, engine in the center of the hull, rudders far away from the stern, small daggerboards, this is not how production cats look like nowadays from the big five.

Maybe an asian / vietnamese design or a small east european builder. Not for cruising, more for a weekend sail in calm seas.

Not a performance cat either, wide flat hulls, doesnt make sense.

[smj]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Definitely not a Outremar, something small, looks like DIY, not a production cat of the big brands. Flat bottom, engine in the center of the hull, rudders far away from the stern, small daggerboards, this is not how production cats look like nowadays from the big five.

Maybe an asian / vietnamese design or a small east european builder. Not for cruising, more for a weekend sail in calm seas.

Not a performance cat either, wide flat hulls, doesnt make sense.

Zoom in on the second picture, says Outremer on the hull.

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Definitely not a Outremar, something small, looks like DIY, not a production cat of the big brands. Flat bottom, engine in the center of the hull, rudders far away from the stern, small daggerboards, this is not how production cats look like nowadays from the big five.

Maybe an asian / vietnamese design or a small east european builder. Not for cruising, more for a weekend sail in calm seas.

Not a performance cat either, wide flat hulls, doesnt make sense.

It is definitely an Outremer

[smj]

Another performance cat that flipped while being singlehanded.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/news/w...et-rock-139690
An ORC 50, amazing how high she is floating.

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Wind gust most likely, no wave action needed.

One of the static stability indicators for catamarans is the KSI - Kelsall Stability Indicator, which estimates the wind speed at 90*AWA that could capsize a cat with full main and jib set. For performance cats it’s lower, particularly those with large base sail areas. A new generation Outremer 45 KSI = 24.5 knots while a Lagoon 440 KSI = 44 knots. Happily, I note that my performance cat has KSI = 38.6 knots.

There is certainly less room for error when sailing a lighter cat with a larger rig. Reefing to the gusts, and accepting that you may be plodding along between squalls, is the price you pay. Or, vigilance and the knowledge of what to do when a big gust hits.

And unfortunately many people buying performance cats don’t understand how to handle them for dynamic responses to big gusts. Sailing a dinghy cat that is prone to capsizing like a Hobie 16 is one way to learn, but is not widespread. The responses are different to a monohull.
- Heading upwind - ease sheets and head up
- Close reaching to broad reaching - bear away hard to counteract the heeling force to near dead downwind, do not ease the main sheet (easing adds power, which you don’t want), jib can be eased during the turn and furled away once heading downwind
- Dead downwind - hold on, do not ease the main sheet, jib can be furled away

Systems such as UpSideUp should include wind angle so that they do the right thing when loads become dangerous.

Not easing the main feels counter intuitive - in a mono the quickest way to de-power is to dump either the main sheet or the traveller.

Is this why many cats have the mainsheet well away from the helm?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Not easing the main feels counter intuitive - in a mono the quickest way to de-power is to dump either the main sheet or the traveller.

Is this why many cats have the mainsheet well away from the helm?

No there are times when you need to dump the main. All the performance cats I know of the mainsheet is very accessible.

Originally Posted by fxykty

And unfortunately many people buying performance cats don’t understand how to handle them for dynamic responses to big gusts. Sailing a dinghy cat that is prone to capsizing like a Hobie 16 is one way to learn, but is not widespread. The responses are different to a monohull.
- Heading upwind - ease sheets and head up
- Close reaching to broad reaching - bear away hard to counteract the heeling force to near dead downwind, do not ease the main sheet (easing adds power, which you don’t want), jib can be eased during the turn and furled away once heading downwind
- Dead downwind - hold on, do not ease the main sheet, jib can be furled away

I think fxykty called it. This looks like a new boat. Did the skipper have previous experience on multis? or upgraded from a mono?


Most newbies and mono sailors find bearing away in a gust counter to their experience and it can be very scary in a strong gust when the boat accelerates, especially as you are already going fast. There is a difference between being close hauled pointing high but going relatively slowly(a la mono) when luffing up would be a option and bringing the apparent wind very far forward because of high boat speed when luffing up will increase the tripping force.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Not easing the main feels counter intuitive - in a mono the quickest way to de-power is to dump either the main sheet or the traveller.

Is this why many cats have the mainsheet well away from the helm?

No there are times when you need to dump the main. All the performance cats I know of the mainsheet is very accessible. In fact on a fast cat all of the lines need to immediately accessible.

Originally Posted by fxykty

And unfortunately many people buying performance cats don’t understand how to handle them for dynamic responses to big gusts. Sailing a dinghy cat that is prone to capsizing like a Hobie 16 is one way to learn, but is not widespread. The responses are different to a monohull.
- Heading upwind - ease sheets and head up
- Close reaching to broad reaching - bear away hard to counteract the heeling force to near dead downwind, do not ease the main sheet (easing adds power, which you don’t want), jib can be eased during the turn and furled away once heading downwind
- Dead downwind - hold on, do not ease the main sheet, jib can be furled away

I think fxykty called it. This looks like a new boat. Did the skipper have previous experience on multis? or upgraded from a mono?

Most newbies and mono sailors find bearing away in a gust counter to their experience and it can be very scary in a strong gust when the boat accelerates, especially as you are already going fast. There is a difference between being close hauled pointing high but going relatively slowly(a la mono) when luffing up would be a option and bringing the apparent wind very far forward because of high boat speed when luffing up will increase the tripping force.

[Tupaia]

I have never seen the underwater profile of the latest Outremer before.


The engines are amid ships - obviously to centralise the weight, but the fixed skegs although small would still constitute towards tripping as would the rudders being so far forward.

It would be interesting to know how such a configuration would handle "laying a hull". My own experience is that when hit beam on the boat is pushed sideways rotating around the rudders at the stern and slides down the face of the wave where the process is repeated. Even with mini keels providing the tripping force is not excessive will act in a similar way with the bows being pushed away.



The sterns are also very flat aft, presumably to promote surfing, but with the rudders so far forward the CR is also very far forward that is more akin to mini keels but with no rudder at all. The cat equivalent of a broach can occur when mini keels are still griping and the rudder is either too small or cavitates. A cat with the boards up and rudders close to the stern is almost impossible to broach because the CR is so far aft even with just the mainsail flying.


Just some observations.

[fivecapes]

Here is a pre 2016 model before the 3' stern extension which Oktant has.

Note rudder and sail drive locations....the photos are deceptive.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

Here is a pre 2016 model before the 3' stern extension which Oktant has.

Note rudder and sail drive locations....the photos are deceptive.

This is more what i would expect. Was the capsized boat Oktant? did it have extensions. The photos certainly are deceptive.

[tamicatana]

This is well said, and worth repeating (emphasis mine). Actually IMO this advice isn't just for lighter cats. These techniques become almost instinctive if you learn on dinghy catamarans. Unfortunately, most of the folks with cruising cats didn't start on dinghy cats, and maybe not on dinghy sailboats at all...

Originally Posted by fxykty

There is certainly less room for error when sailing a lighter cat with a larger rig. Reefing to the gusts, and accepting that you may be plodding along between squalls, is the price you pay. Or, vigilance and the knowledge of what to do when a big gust hits.

And unfortunately many people buying performance cats don’t understand how to handle them for dynamic responses to big gusts. Sailing a dinghy cat that is prone to capsizing like a Hobie 16 is one way to learn, but is not widespread. The responses are different to a monohull.
- Heading upwind - ease sheets and head up
- Close reaching to broad reaching - bear away hard to counteract the heeling force to near dead downwind, do not ease the main sheet (easing adds power, which you don’t want), jib can be eased during the turn and furled away once heading downwind
- Dead downwind - hold on, do not ease the main sheet, jib can be furled away (you can stall the jib behind the main, and it's nice if you can reef whilst going downwind -t)

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

No there are times when you need to dump the main. All the performance cats I know of the mainsheet is very accessible. In fact on a fast cat all of the lines need to immediately accessible.



I think fxykty called it. This looks like a new boat. Did the skipper have previous experience on multis? or upgraded from a mono?

Most newbies and mono sailors find bearing away in a gust counter to their experience and it can be very scary in a strong gust when the boat accelerates, especially as you are already going fast. There is a difference between being close hauled pointing high but going relatively slowly(a la mono) when luffing up would be a option and bringing the apparent wind very far forward because of high boat speed when luffing up will increase the tripping force.

We (mono) always bear away when over run by a squall. For a couple reasons: one, the boat speed increases and apparent wind decreases, two the main hides the jib, effectively reducing sail area.

Three years ago we were over run by a squall a few hundred miles north of Antigua. Full main and full jib, power reaching in 15 to 20 knots. Maybe midnight when it caught us from behind, the breeze went up to the low 50's quickly. We bore off and sailed with it for 2 or 3 minutes, then it was back to 15 knots and we went back on course.

I remember looking up and forward and seeing the stars, didn't expect the squall to catch us from behind at all.

Good to hear all are ok, sorry they lost the boat, they're great boats.

[NSfooter]

Speaking purely as a cat owner and a Naval Architect, this hypothesis is nonsense.

1) Hatch open after capsize = escape after capsize.

2) Flooding of a hull doesn't flip a cat

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by NSfooter

Speaking purely as a cat owner and a Naval Architect, this hypothesis is nonsense.

1) Hatch open after capsize = escape after capsize.

2) Flooding of a hull doesn't flip a cat

Agreed. Occam’s razor strikes again. I heard the owner has 40 years experience (don’t know if mono or cats) and that they had a strong gust, couldn’t respond in time and flipped.

Escape hatches were opened after the capsize to get on to the upturned hull and release and launch the life raft.

[Manateeman]

What happened to the automatic main sheet release device we saw on a video with an older French skipper who was set up for single hand. Sorry, I’ve lost the reference.
Wouldn’t that help a lot with sailors who are new to higher performance cats?
I’ve been hit by downdrafts or super gusts that give little warning and the hit so fast, one would need the speed of a martial arts master to get to the main sheet which always...always is tangled up. Granted, experience works to prevent flips but we are just asking the members this simple question.
Are there devices which can prevent these capsize events.
( well besides a really fast crew of fat manatees)
Mark