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Sam Woodbridge · 10-01-2021, 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by pitlaw

The first thing I would do is watch this detailed how to program a 614. https://marinehowto.com/programming-...age-regulator/

How big is your bank? What is your DOD?

Pitlaw! That link is awesome THANK YOU

wingssail · 10-01-2021, 11:13

I wonder if the 614 regulator is not properly sensing the battery voltage. It would be possible that the regulator continues in bulk charge mode because it never thinks the battery voltage has reached the set point.

Otherwise I don't read anything else you wrote about which indicates a problem. For sure if the output is dropping off due to temperature than the temp sensor you already have is working, and it sounds like the belt is a good one.

So, to my way of thinking, either the 614 is seeing a low voltage or the 614 is faulty (not unheard of).

Take a voltmeter and stick the probe into the back of the plug (red wire) on the 614. If you read less than 14.38v then that explains why the 614 continues to try to charge the batteries and you need to see why that reading is low. If you read over 14.38, and you haven't changed the bulk voltage parameter in advanced programming, then possibly the 614 has failed.

Here is a photo of a Balmar regulator (removed for testing) showing 10.8 bv (battery volts) when my volt meter reads 12.37v. This was a faulty regulator.

sailorboy1 · 10-01-2021, 11:22

well a 120 amp alternator shouldn't be over heating at 60 amps

but staying in bulk isn't the problem as it will stay in that till absorption is reached

and it shouldn't be dropping in/out of bulk

what temp does the regulator say the alternator is getting to, I bet it is a bad regulator

you may want to try a reset

BTW - my "spare" regulator is an old one that had the temp circuit go bad and think the alternator is hot (it didn't even have a sensor). It still works but the output is low because of it.

Sam Woodbridge · 10-01-2021, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingssail

I wonder if the 614 regulator is not properly sensing the battery voltage. It would be possible that the regulator continues in bulk charge mode because it never thinks the battery voltage has reached the set point.

Otherwise I don't read anything else you wrote about which indicates a problem. For sure if the output is dropping off due to temperature than the temp sensor you already have is working, and it sounds like the belt is a good one.

So, to my way of thinking, either the 614 is seeing a low voltage or the 614 is faulty (not unheard of).

Take a voltmeter and stick the probe into the back of the plug (red wire) on the 614. If you read less than 14.38v then that explains why the 614 continues to try to charge the batteries and you need to see why that reading is low. If you read over 14.38, and you haven't changed the bulk voltage parameter in advanced programming, then possibly the 614 has failed.

Here is a photo of a Balmar regulator (removed for testing) showing 10.8 bv (battery volts) when my volt meter reads 12.37v. This was a faulty regulator.

Wingssail, thank you!

wrwakefield · 10-01-2021, 12:30

If I am understanding what you have written, you have not yet connected the Balmar temp sensor to the alternator. If that is correct, do so, and set the Max alt temp in the 614 to the alt specs for max temp [or even a little under...]

With surpentine belts you shouldn't need the belt manager [BM] to prevent the belt from slipping, but can use it to reduce the alt output [reduce Amps] in an effort to reduce the alt operating temperature.

It sounds like you are overheating with BM= 1. Try reducing the load one BM step at a time [e.g., change BM to 2 and run extended bulk again] until it no longer overheats. The max output amps from the alt will decrease slightly as you increase the BM number. Find the point where it won't overheat so you don't wear out your alt prematurely... [All this assuming there is adequate fresh air flow over the alternator/in the engine space.]

Also make sure the 614 voltage sense wires [+ and -] go all the way to the battery bank so the batts are being charged per your settings.

If you haven't already, also install the 614 battery sensor on the battery bank as well so the 614 output voltage is temperature compensated. [This won't help with your alt overheat issue, but is best practice.]

I agree, all of this is very fiddly and tedious with the Balmar voltage regulators [which I've been using for 30+ years now... And next time one dies— and they all do, and abruptly— I will likely change to one of the Wakespeed models...]

To facilitate my sanity when dealing with Balmar voltage regulators, I find building a spreadsheet with a column listing ALL the 614 setting in the order they appear [switch to long menus] with the next column listing your starting programming values, and a third column with live 614 readouts transcribed from a video of the long display from the Balmar. [~ 90 seconds long; Pause the video each time the display changes so you can record— and understand/process— the values.]

If you are interested, here is a link to my current Balmar 614 programming spreadsheet [Be sure to input your own programming values if you download a copy. This is my live document and will change over time...]

I realize some if not all of what I have mentioned above may have already been covered by others. I listed my complete thoughts in case anything has been missed.

In case any of this is useful.

Cheers! Bill

Sam Woodbridge · 10-01-2021, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

well a 120 amp alternator shouldn't be over heating at 60 amps

but staying in bulk isn't the problem as it will stay in that till absorption is reached

and it shouldn't be dropping in/out of bulk

what temp does the regulator say the alternator is getting to, I bet it is a bad regulator

you may want to try a reset

BTW - my "spare" regulator is an old one that had the temp circuit go bad and think the alternator is hot (it didn't even have a sensor). It still works but the output is low because of it.

Sailorboy, thank you.

The regulator states the alternator is 100c and it stops charging for a few minutes and cools down. It then starts charging again.

The temp is also right. I a temp heat gun to verify.

Sam Woodbridge · 10-01-2021, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrwakefield

If I am understanding what you have written, you have not yet connected the Balmar temp sensor to the alternator. If that is correct, do so, and set the Max alt temp in the 614 to the alt specs for max temp [or even a little under...]

With surpentine belts you shouldn't need the belt manager [BM] to prevent the belt from slipping, but can use it to reduce the alt output [reduce Amps] in an effort to reduce the alt operating temperature.

It sounds like you are overheating with BM= 1. Try reducing the load one BM step at a time [e.g., change BM to 2 and run extended bulk again] until it no longer overheats. The max output amps from the alt will decrease slightly as you increase the BM number. Find the point where it won't overheat so you don't wear out your alt prematurely... [All this assuming there is adequate fresh air flow over the alternator/in the engine space.]

Also make sure the 614 voltage sense wires [+ and -] go all the way to the battery bank so the batts are being charged per your settings.

If you haven't already, also install the 614 battery sensor on the battery bank as well so the 614 output voltage is temperature compensated. [This won't help with your alt overheat issue, but is best practice.]

I agree, all of this is very fiddly and tedious with the Balmar voltage regulators [which I've been using for 30+ years now... And next time one dies— and they all do, and abruptly— I will likely change to one of the Wakespeed models...]

To facilitate my sanity when dealing with Balmar voltage regulators, I find building a spreadsheet with a column listing ALL the 614 setting in the order they appear [switch to long menus] with the next column listing your starting programming values, and a third column with live 614 readouts transcribed from a video of the long display from the Balmar. [~ 90 seconds long; Pause the video each time the display changes so you can record— and understand/process— the values.]

If you are interested, here is a link to my current Balmar 614 programming spreadsheet [Be sure to input your own programming values if you download a copy. This is my live document and will change over time...]

I realize some if not all of what I have mentioned above may have already been covered by others. I listed my complete thoughts in case anything has been missed.

In case any of this is useful.

Cheers! Bill

So cool and thank you Bill. I’ll check out your spread sheet. Seems like a really neat thing.

This morning I turned down the belt load to 9. I do have a new alternator temp sensor, but my heat gun verifies the temp off of the MC 614

Thanks again

Sam

motretu · 10-01-2021, 13:01

so, to recap, the boat/sys is new to you, history of balmar sys is unknow but has never worked correctly during your ownership. the alt overheats (not clear what that means in this case) and the voltage measured across the batt bank terminals is > 14.4ish, suggesting "bulk" charging state, and current measured from the alt is in the 60amp range, even after a shore power charge leaving the batt bank terminal voltage at 12.6 or greater under no load conditions.

we need to know how "overheat" is defined. being hot to the touch suggest a case temp > 110degF. if only warm to touch, case temp is < 110. what does balmar define as "overheat"?

for a 400ah bank, 60amp is 15%, so it is possible tjhe change level from bulk to absorb is set to low.

if the regulator settings can be change to cause a change to the alt output, then it is likely the reg is working. if not, then i would suspect the alt is faulty.

since reg/alt are out of warrantly, you are stuck finding the least expensive way to solve the problem.

i would start by disconnecting the alt field from the reg feed. the alt current sould go to zero. if it does, the alt is likely OK. else, the alt is defective.

if both alt and reg appear to be ok, then it is a reg settings issue.

Stu Jackson · 10-01-2021, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Woodbridge

Hmm, Mr Jackson I’ll follow your advice tomorrow morning!

Thank you -Sam

Sam,

Here are the links I've previously posted. If you do an advanced search on this forum for Small Engine Mode under my name, you'll find these referenced links as well as more discussion from folks here.

Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4454.0.html

Small Engine Mode - discussion with link to the picture of the toggle switch: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4....html#msg27149

Small Engine Mode - the picture of the toggle switch http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4669.0.html

Sam Woodbridge · 10-01-2021, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by motretu

so, to recap, the boat/sys is new to you, history of balmar sys is unknow but has never worked correctly during your ownership. the alt overheats (not clear what that means in this case) and the voltage measured across the batt bank terminals is > 14.4ish, suggesting "bulk" charging state, and current measured from the alt is in the 60amp range, even after a shore power charge leaving the batt bank terminal voltage at 12.6 or greater under no load conditions.

we need to know how "overheat" is defined. being hot to the touch suggest a case temp > 110degF. if only warm to touch, case temp is < 110. what does balmar define as "overheat"?

for a 400ah bank, 60amp is 15%, so it is possible tjhe change level from bulk to absorb is set to low.

if the regulator settings can be change to cause a change to the alt output, then it is likely the reg is working. if not, then i would suspect the alt is faulty.

since reg/alt are out of warrantly, you are stuck finding the least expensive way to solve the problem.

i would start by disconnecting the alt field from the reg feed. the alt current sould go to zero. if it does, the alt is likely OK. else, the alt is defective.

if both alt and reg appear to be ok, then it is a reg settings issue.

Thank you for your reply Motretu. I’ll try what you have suggested.

Alternator over heats and the MC 614 shuts it down when the temperature reaches 100c from the alternator temp sensor wire plugged into the MC 614

Sam Woodbridge · 10-01-2021, 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Sam,

Here are the links I've previously posted. If you do an advanced search on this forum for Small Engine Mode under my name, you'll find these referenced links as well as more discussion from folks here.

Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4454.0.html

Small Engine Mode - discussion with link to the picture of the toggle switch: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4....html#msg27149

Small Engine Mode - the picture of the toggle switch http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4669.0.html

Thank you STU Jackson. I’m reading through those links buddy.

Emmalina · 10-01-2021, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Woodbridge

I have a new alt thermal sensor, but didn’t install since my heat gun produced the same results as the MC-614 reading alt temp.

I think the problem for some reason - it will not ramp down from bulk charging when it should after 18 minutes.

Maybe I’m lost and it wouldn’t be the first time!

Install the sensor it turns down the alternator when it gets too hot !!!