Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Well, as you say, it depends on your style of cruising, and I think one of the points of this project is to inspire people to question their current way of doing things. Mostly with respect to global warming, of course, but using a new way of sailing in a symbolic way..

From their web (my bold):



I'm fascinated by electric propulsion (and a couple of friends have the Oceanvolt system here in Finland) and a zero-emission boat. I have to ask them how they have solved the heating challenge. I'm not at all fascinated by sleeping in a cold boat.

https://vingilote.blog/why-vingilote...e-a-generator/

These balance owners are living off reverse cycle heat in seattle. I think one of them is an electrical engineer and calculated the solar and battery bank capacity to allow them to heat the boat, they also have dual integrel alternators, so not exactly what Cornell is doing.

Carbon Film heating is also very efficient and certainly the future of electric heat. Even runs off 12v. I have a 2m square mat which heats a small room when the diurnal swing is around 5-15c. About 200-300W per square meter of film.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Carbon Film heating is also very efficient and certainly the future of electric heat. Even runs off 12v. I have a 2m square mat which heats a small room when the diurnal swing is around 5-15c. About 200-300W per square meter of film.

Carbon film heating is indeed very efficient. In fact, it is 100% efficient. Every KWh of electricity produces a KWh of heat -- exactly. Not a single iota of electric power is lost. Of course, an electric stove is also 100% efficient. The reality is that resistive heat, be it Carbon, Nicrome wire, "ceramic," a light bulb (incandescent, flourescent, or LED) or even the battery cables (ever held one when the inverter is running hard) convert all the electric power into heat, at the rate of 1KWh -> 3412 BTU.


Unless you run a heat pump of some sort (and get your "extra" BTU from outside), new styles of electric heat only change the delivery.


Granted, the carbon mat is apparently a radiant source, so you "feel" warmer at a lower temperature, which can provide some savings. But still, if you are trying to maintain a given temperature, it saves nothing.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Carbon film heating is indeed very efficient. In fact, it is 100% efficient. Every KWh of electricity produces a KWh of heat -- exactly. Not a single iota of electric power is lost. Of course, an electric stove is also 100% efficient. The reality is that resistive heat, be it Carbon, Nicrome wire, "ceramic," a light bulb (incandescent, flourescent, or LED) or even the battery cables (ever held one when the inverter is running hard) convert all the electric power into heat, at the rate of 1KWh -> 3412 BTU.


Unless you run a heat pump of some sort (and get your "extra" BTU from outside), new styles of electric heat only change the delivery.


Granted, the carbon mat is apparently a radiant source, so you "feel" warmer at a lower temperature, which can provide some savings. But still, if you are trying to maintain a given temperature, it saves nothing.

Yeh, the idea of having to heat every last cubic feet of air inside 24/7 is just decadent, though its what most people expect. With a normal space heater you are heating something to heat the air to then heat yourself. This mentality is what we need to change if this electric heating thing is going to work.

The carbon film allows instant heat where it's needed, be it under your feet in the living room, under your bed before you get into bed or in the walls in the bathroom when you take your morning shower.

The small spaces inside a boat is pretty much perfect for this especially in a catamaran where you can compartmentalize the heat pretty efficiently.

In the end you do have to change the way you live but maybe that not a bad thing. After all don't we cruise and sail to be closer to nature? In Japan where it wasnt common to have interior heating people just wore more clothing and had a small furnace to heat under the table which itself was insulated. We are adaptable creatures if we want to be.






Like how Elon musk always go back to first principals when thinking of a problem. The problem we need to solve is how to be comfortable, not necessarily how to maintain a constant air temperature inside.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I'm fascinated by electric propulsion (and a couple of friends have the Oceanvolt system here in Finland) and a zero-emission boat. I have to ask them how they have solved the heating challenge. I'm not at all fascinated by sleeping in a cold boat.

That is the problem I see. No point in chucking out the diesel engine if you need to keep the tank to heat the boat. I went back to see what Alluring Arctic says about heating on YT. He uses 5L per day for a 30ft yacht with no insulation at 71'N in norway during the winter. There is quite a bit of energy in 5L and to replace this with something else is going to interesting.

Pete

[Adelie]

Insulation is the low hanging place to start both on land and afloat.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Pete7

That is the problem I see. No point in chucking out the diesel engine if you need to keep the tank to heat the boat. I went back to see what Alluring Arctic says about heating on YT. He uses 5L per day for a 30ft yacht with no insulation at 71'N in norway during the winter. There is quite a bit of energy in 5L and to replace this with something else is going to interesting.

Pete

I actually sent a Q to Oceanvolt about this. They said the most viable options atm are: 1) use diesel ("great for heating, not so good for propulsion") or 2) expand the battery capacity and use an air source heat pump.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Carbon film heating is indeed very efficient. In fact, it is 100% efficient. Every KWh of electricity produces a KWh of heat -- exactly. Not a single iota of electric power is lost. Of course, an electric stove is also 100% efficient. The reality is that resistive heat, be it Carbon, Nicrome wire, "ceramic," a light bulb (incandescent, flourescent, or LED) or even the battery cables (ever held one when the inverter is running hard) convert all the electric power into heat, at the rate of 1KWh -> 3412 BTU.

I've tried to explain to people many a time that a fan is also a perfect heater. It's typically more efficient than radiant sources because radiant sources are at the mercy of the infrared transmittance of the materials that they strike.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

I've tried to explain to people many a time that a fan is also a perfect heater. It's typically more efficient than radiant sources because radiant sources are at the mercy of the infrared transmittance of the materials that they strike.

But a fan isn’t the source of heat, right? Isn’t it just blowing air from one place to the other? So what is the heat source for the air that you’re referring to?

Our boat has a diesel hydronic heater with heat exchanger fans in all four corners and the salon. Unfortunately the heater itself has failed beyond repair. Our dilemma: do we purchase a replacement diesel hydronic heater to take advantage of the existing installation, or do we rip all that out and go with a new heating system? If new, what?

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by fxykty

But a fan isn’t the source of heat, right? Isn’t it just blowing air from one place to the other? So what is the heat source for the air that you’re referring to?

I think the idea was that the laws of thermodynamics apply, and all the energy put into the fan will eventually turn into heating the boat?

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Yihang

In the end you do have to change the way you live but maybe that not a bad thing. After all don't we cruise and sail to be closer to nature? In Japan where it wasnt common to have interior heating people just wore more clothing and had a small furnace to heat under the table which itself was insulated. We are adaptable creatures if we want to be.

I think the last sentence is quite beautiful!

At the moment I'm sitting in our boat, which is heated (the volume) from roughly 10C to 20C using a diesel heater.

My problem, however, is that it's a bit cold down at the floor level, and my feet are freezing. I could, I suppose, turn the overall heating even further up -- OR -- I could turn to a smart heating solution and put on some socks!

The furnace thing was strongly promoted by Skip Novak, for his kind of sailing at least, since it doesn't depend on electricity. I guess "zero carbon" would be achievable using renewable biomass as fuel.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I think the last sentence is quite beautiful!

At the moment I'm sitting in our boat, which is heated (the volume) from roughly 10C to 20C using a diesel heater.

My problem, however, is that it's a bit cold down at the floor level, and my feet are freezing. I could, I suppose, turn the overall heating even further up -- OR -- I could turn to a smart heating solution and put on some socks!

The furnace thing was strongly promoted by Skip Novak, for his kind of sailing at least, since it doesn't depend on electricity. I guess "zero carbon" would be achievable using renewable biomass as fuel.

Get some foot warming pads from amazon and wear a beany, you'll be sweating in no time. I have one of those pads under the table in winter and its great. Once your extremities are warm rest of the body follows. I go into friends house with central heating and the place feel like a sauna. Such a waste of energy.

[Yihang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rujj...nel=SailingUma

UMA is kinda screwed with an electric motor in the Fjords of Norway. Forced to sail when the weather is bad and stuck when the weather is nice but no wind....

40 tacks in 3miles....

[Matt Johnson]

When we hungout last year, I did warn them about the winds in the fjords.... heck, the entire Norway coast. The thought at the time was for them to get a portable gas generator for this part of the journey.

There's a reason the Viking boats had so many rowing positions .



Matt

Originally Posted by Yihang

UMA is kinda screwed with an electric motor in the Fjords of Norway. Forced to sail when the weather is bad and stuck when the weather is nice but no wind....

40 tacks in 3miles....

[PSea]

cruising w/ an electric motor but no diesel generator makes little sense. you need a generator for distance and exactly these types of situations imo.

[Matt Johnson]

Yeah. In Norway our solar couldn't even keep up with small house loads, so there is no chance it could change a propulsion bank.

Lots of planning around where to plug in to marinas will be necessary. But they are there and doing what they can...


Matt

Originally Posted by PSea

cruising w/ an electric motor but no diesel generator makes little sense. you need a generator for distance and exactly these types of situations imo.