Vaccine Certification Restriction of Travel

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by CarlF

There obviously is confusion. The truth is that two weeks after you get the first shot of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines your chances of testing positive for Covid or giving it to someone else become extremely small. It becomes even smaller after the 2nd shot.

Businesses in the US have always been able to choose who to have as customers (except for the nine specific types of discrimination - sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, religion, or genetic information ). Vacination status is not on the list so private business can do as it wants. It's called free enterprise.

And other countries can have any rule they want before admitting visitors. The US prohibited Chinese from entering the country when Covid broke out. Whether or not that helped, most Americans thought that was a good idea.

Except the us allowed citizens traveling from the same country to return, very odd way to stop transmission.

[requiem]

Will be taking the vaccine as soon as it's available (which is likely many months off). Many of the objections remind me of the classic b-school story of A&W's failed attempt to compete with McD's quarter-pounder by offering a third-pounder.

By the time most here have the opportunity to be vaccinated it will have been "tested" on hundreds of thousands of people. It's also likely that the ongoing trials will have progressed to the point where a standard approval, rather than an EUA, will have occurred.

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

Your employer will force you to get vaccinated to come to the office.
You will not be allowed in any public events, sport , theater, concerts anywhere there’s a crowd without vaccine passport. That is forced vaccination.
Your children will not be allowed in school without vaccine passport , that is forced vaccination.
You will not be allowed to fly or ride any type of public transportation without vaccine passport, that is forced vaccination.
You will not be allowed across any borders without a vaccine passport, that is forced vaccination.

Every business is different, and has a better understanding of how best to keep their customers and employees safe rather than having Congress impose heavy-handed regulations that would force them to accept the non-vaccinated. Customers can simply pick alternate places to visit, or create their own. After all, you're always free to open your own movie theater, construct your own sports venue, or hire your own plane if you want to travel that quickly. /s

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

. . . Based on the reports/estimates I suspect that the potential long-term effects, and the probability of them, for a case of SARS-Cov-2 far outweigh the potential for, and probability of, chronic problems arising from mRNA-based Covid vaccines. That's my personal opinion from reading the available information. But the science is far from settled and it would be good to remember that.

I think this is spot on. People have trouble putting risks into perspective, and here is a good way to do it. Yes, there is "some" risk with any vaccine, indeed any medicine or anything whatsoever you put into your body. How much risk? It looks like much less, far less, than the risks from having the disease, even for those in the very low risk categories according to age and pre-existing conditions.


I'll be first in line myself.



I do think people are entitled to their own even irrational fears. We get into dangerous territory when we start to consider banning what seems to someone like "uninformed opinion". So I think restricting the movement of people who refuse to vaccinate is problematic (restricting ANYONE's movement is problematic in my opinion). But as long as the pandemic is not stopped, society has a strong interest in snuffing it out. Applying restrictions which are otherwise constitutional, to unvaccinated people, which are not needed with regard to people who are immune, I think is OK.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

Your employer will force you to get vaccinated to come to the office.
You will not be allowed in any public events, sport , theater, concerts anywhere there’s a crowd without vaccine passport. That is forced vaccination.
Your children will not be allowed in school without vaccine passport , that is forced vaccination.
You will not be allowed to fly or ride any type of public transportation without vaccine passport, that is forced vaccination.
You will not be allowed across any borders without a vaccine passport, that is forced vaccination.

In the U.S., forced vaccination, even directly forced vaccination, is legal and constitutional, if it's ordered by a state (Federal government has no such power). The Supreme Court in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), 115 years ago, decided that, and it's still valid law.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Except the us allowed citizens traveling from the same country to return, very odd way to stop transmission.

Most countries consider it a right to return to your own country of residence. AFAIK only Australia has not allowed own citizens to freely return.


You can however put returning citizens into quarantine, which the U.S. did not do.

[GordMay]

I expect that eventually, proof of Covid-19 vaccination will garner one all sorts of (non-medical) benefits; such as crossing borders, without isolation/quarantine.
I also expect that most jurisdictions will continue to employ differing restrictions on travelers, depending upon things such as: reason for travel, place of origin, vaccination status, etc.

Originally Posted by Eclectic Always

I'm not sure that I agree with that concept anymore, though I've also read (and not verified, to be pedantic) that the original "you're entitled to your own opinion" either explicitly stated or implied that one was entitled to one's informed opinion ...

According to Quote Investigator (& other sources), the earliest match located by QI occurred in an Associated Press article from 1946. Bernard M. Baruch was quoted when he complained about an opponent’s assertions which he believed were inaccurate.
“Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts.”

In 1983 U.S Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan was a member of the National Commission on Social Security Reform. He employed the saying within an op-ed piece in the “Washington Post”:
“There is a center in American politics. It can govern. The commission is just an example of what can be done. First, get your facts straight. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. Second, decide to live with the facts. Third, resolve to surmount them. Because, fourth, what is at stake is our capacity to govern.”

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

Quantas already announced they will require proof of vaccination to be allowed onboard. That is forced vaccination.

Qantas also demand payment. Are they also guilty of ‘extortion’?
DomPerignon might have better chosen the adjective ‘mandatory’ (or obligatory), over ‘forced’, for his list of vaccination required activities (in which nobody forces one to participate).

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

It’s not about the vaccine per say. It’s about forced vaccination and vaccines passports. I think this should be resisted in every possible way.

Vaccine passports have been around for decades , I made several journeys that required me to carry the yellow card ( I still have it )

Whether we resist it or not , airlines , immigration and business etc will undoubtably demand it. Defacto it will be carried

Ps none will “ force “ the vaccine on you. But your access to society will be limited as a result , forcing you to get the vaccine. You can retain bodily integrity but equally others can act to protect themselves from you.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Most countries consider it a right to return to your own country of residence. AFAIK only Australia has not allowed own citizens to freely return.


You can however put returning citizens into quarantine, which the U.S. did not do.

More Non Sense.

Both Australia and New Zealand allow citizens to freely return subject to there being room in quarantine for them...

Australia can - I think - handle 5000 or so a week.... weird thing is that every time you blink there are more on the list...

We are both doing better than Sweden....

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

More Non Sense.

Both Australia and New Zealand allow citizens to freely return subject to there being room in quarantine for them...

Australia can - I think - handle 5000 or so a week.... weird thing is that every time you blink there are more on the list...

It's not, "non-sense". There are 39,00 Australians stranded abroad. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/us...3E4XOLRTI2W3E/

Returning home to Australia is subject to quite severe quotas. Not only that, but Aussies are banned from leaving, too. This is a unique situation in the world, and is widely criticized as a human rights violation. Even Russia doesn't restrict movement of its citizens like this, and such restrictions would be constitutionally impossible in most civilized countries.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

. . . We are both doing better than Sweden....

Australia and New Zealand are doing better not only than Sweden, but than the entire rest of the world, being alone in the world for having actually eradicated the virus but for a small flareup here and there. I used to be skeptical that the very harsh and destructive measures used in Australia were worth that. The whole rest of the world has taken a different path -- electing to "live with the virus" to some extent or another, and forego the very costly effort required to eradicate it.



I have been changing my mind and I am not so sure now that it wasn't worth it. There are huge benefits from not having the disease at all (as some have argued on here), not just health, but social, economic, etc. Maybe really worth a limited period of very harsh measures.



We'll have a better perspective on this after it's all over and after all the bills come in.

[atoll]

i cant see how a vaccination certificate would work since children under 16,pregnant women ,women planning to become pregnant and those allergic will be refused vaccination

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... Australia and New Zealand are doing better not only than Sweden, but than the entire rest of the world, being alone in the world for having actually eradicated the virus but for a small flareup here and there. I used to be skeptical that the very harsh and destructive measures used in Australia were worth that. The whole rest of the world has taken a different path -- electing to "live with the virus" to some extent or another, and forego the very costly effort required to eradicate it.
I have been changing my mind and I am not so sure now that it wasn't worth it. There are huge benefits from not having the disease at all (as some have argued on here), not just health, but social, economic, etc. Maybe really worth a limited period of very harsh measures.
We'll have a better perspective on this after it's all over and after all the bills come in.

Indeed.
“New Zealand Economy Surges Out of Recession In V-Shaped Recovery”
The government’s determination to eliminate the virus saw it impose one of the strictest lockdowns in the world but allowed a quicker resumption of economic activity once it was stamped out.
➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...my-243934.html

[sailorboy1]

Last week my wife and I both got our flu shots and a shingles shot. We were both ill that night and I woke once with the shakes. It sucked!

But I have had the flu in the past and my wife has had the shingles. The shot reactions and side effects are a LOT less than getting the flu or shingles.

But hey, if you want to catch them and somehow believe that the vaccine risks somehow are less than the illness risk just don't get the shots. But don't cry and post about later getting sick or any limits society puts on you for not doing so.

I checked the calculator on the NY Tines to see where in line i am for getting the vaccine. I am behind 23 million others so maybe i might be the 23,000,001 person in US to get the shot. That seems like something that by then is pretty tested.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Last week my wife and I both got our flu shots and a shingles shot. We were both ill that night and I woke once with the shakes. It sucked!

But I have had the flu in the past and my wife has had the shingles. The shot reactions and side effects are a LOT less than getting the flu or shingles.

We had these shots as well, including the second shingles vaccination. Reaction to the second shingles (shringrix) shot was far worse for both me and wife. So you have that to look forward to. ;-)

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

We had these shots as well, including the second shingles vaccination. Reaction to the second shingles (shringrix) shot was far worse for both me and wife. So you have that to look forward to. ;-)

Gee thanks

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Last week my wife and I both got our flu shots and a shingles shot. We were both ill that night and I woke once with the shakes. It sucked!

But I have had the flu in the past and my wife has had the shingles. The shot reactions and side effects are a LOT less than getting the flu or shingles.

But hey, if you want to catch them and somehow believe that the vaccine risks somehow are less than the illness risk just don't get the shots. But don't cry and post about later getting sick or any limits society puts on you for not doing so.

I checked the calculator on the NY Tines to see where in line i am for getting the vaccine. I am behind 23 million others so maybe i might be the 23,000,001 person in US to get the shot. That seems like something that by then is pretty tested.

Just remember.. if you have a long term adverse reaction.. Sue the Government..
Big Pharma Covid vaccine makers cannot be sued by anyone..