Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-05-2024, 15:45   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2021
Boat: Catalina 27, Tall Rig Wing Keel
Posts: 53
Wiring Diagram Review

Hello, I have attached a picture of the a wiring diagram I am working through for my boat. Hoping for any feedback on the high level layout before implementing.

I've also added a few questions below, let me know if I can clarify anything, I'm new to this so I could be way off on a lot of this.

1. I have seen that having an ELCI Breaker is now an ABYC requirement, my panel currently has a 30a thermal breaker (push button reset) for the main AC load. Do I need to invest in the ELCI breaker?
2. I am having trouble understanding what the wiring would look like if I added an inverter, I would ideally have the two outlets not for the battery charger be powered by the inverter. Anyone have information on this I can read into?
3. My diesel engine is currently pulled for a rebuild (using a 6HP outboard for power right now). Is grounding directly to the prop shaft OK? It could be a year or more until the engine is back in so this is a somewhat permanent solution.

A few other notes
- House Battery is a 230ah I just purchased from LiTime
- Charger will likely be the LiTime 40A Charger
- I don't have an engine start battery now but will have one later any considerations for that? I have a battery switch on my panel.
- I also have an AC Service and Reverse Polarity light on my panel I will use.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Small World Wiring Diagram.jpg
Views:	223
Size:	51.5 KB
ID:	289836  
new-to-sailing is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2024, 18:34   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SF Bay Area (Boat Sold)
Boat: Former owner of a Valiant V40
Posts: 1,185
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Get, read and understand Nigel Calder's book on electrical first, then try, try again.
jamhass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-05-2024, 19:03   #3
Registered User
 
Knotical's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: LI Sound
Boat: Sabre 34II
Posts: 851
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamhass View Post
Get, read and understand Nigel Calder's book on electrical first, then try, try again.
If you have the expertise to evaluate OPís wiring diagram can you at least tell him whatís wrong, and maybe what he did right?

I re-did my boatís wiring last year and even though I have Calderís book, I went with other web sources and YT videos to design the system, it came out well and safer than the original.

I would defer commenting on OPís system as I donít have inverter/charger, my AC system only works when I am connected to shore power.
Knotical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2024, 14:03   #4
Registered User
 
rls8r's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Chesapeake Bay - Galesville, MD
Boat: Hinckley, Bermuda 40 Mk III, 40'
Posts: 262
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Hi new-to-sailing -

Since nobody has responded to your questions yet, I thought that I'd jump in and (perhaps) start the ball rolling. I've attached the AC wiring diagram that I did for my boat. It's a bit different from yours, but I think that there are enough similarities for you to work with.

First - my system has a combined battery charger/inverter. It seems like you plan to have a battery charger separate from your inverter. Nevertheless, my panel may give you some idea of how to proceed in your way. If you look at my AC main panel you'll see that I run the shore current to the main AC breaker, which provides current to two breakers (one to the water heater; another to the inverter) via a bus strip. This is similar to the setup that you would have - except instead of a breaker going to an outlet for a water heater, you'll have a breaker for your battery charger outlet. Then, like mine - your second breaker would go to your inverter.

AC power from your inverter would go to another AC breaker for your outlets. In my case, I used the third breaker on my main AC panel to supply power to my AC outlets. However, before doing that I cut the positive bus bar on the main panel - thus separating the breaker for the AC outlets from the other two AC breakers on the panel. When I'm connected to shore power my inverter is a "pass-through" device; when I'm not connected to shore power the inverter draws power from the batteries.

ABYC added an ELCI to their standards (not a requirement) in 2013. You can have one - or not have one - as you please. The main breaker protects the wiring circuit from overloading; the ELCI guards against current leakage that could endanger swimmers in the area and would reduce galvanic corrosion. Arguably, GFCI outlets could do that, but they trip at such a low amperage that it isn't feasible for them to provide "whole boat" protection. So - GFCI outlets are used in the head, galley, etc., while an ELCI is used to protect the "whole boat." The ELCI should be installed immediately after (in no case greater than 10') from the shore inlet.

I've addressed your question about the inverter above. Let me know if you have additional questions or if my text wasn't clear (wouldn't be surprising).

I don't see why you couldn't use your prop shaft for grounding - but I'm certainly no authority on that. Hopefully, others will chime in.

I'd attach my DC wiring diagram, which shows wiring for both 'house' and 'start' battery banks - but I use an Automatic Charging Relay (ACR) and two Remote Battery Switches (RBSs) instead of (as you do) using a manual battery switch, so I'm afraid my diagram wouldn't be of much use to you.

In any case - I'll echo jamhass' suggestion that you get a copy of Calder's Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual - for a number of reasons in addition to learning about electric systems. And, as Knotical writes - there are a LOT of good web and YT resources.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Celerity B40-ELEC - AC 24x36.pdf (426.0 KB, 159 views)
__________________
When I die, I want to go quietly, in my sleep; like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
rls8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2024, 17:44   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2021
Boat: Catalina 27, Tall Rig Wing Keel
Posts: 53
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

That was all a huge help, thank you rls8r!!! Let me first say your AC wiring diagram is a thing of beauty (what did you use to make it?). That's helped me conceptualize a lot more of how the system will work together and at least get started piecing things together. Would you mind sharing your DC diagram as well? Sounds like a different setup so may not be a ton of use here but would be curious to look through just to get an understanding of how a different system works.

I also just want to confirm my understanding of the ELCI/GFCI, these are tripped when current is running to ground instead of neutral correct? What then would be the most likely cause of such a leak in my system if I had all GFCI outlets? Corroded connections on other areas of the system, say at the panel or inverter?
new-to-sailing is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2024, 09:01   #6
Registered User
 
rls8r's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Chesapeake Bay - Galesville, MD
Boat: Hinckley, Bermuda 40 Mk III, 40'
Posts: 262
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

I have several sheets that cover my DC wiring (see attached). They are a bit out-of-date since I've made some changes and haven't had a chance to update the drawings (e.g., changed engines and the new one doesn't have glow plugs, added DC breaker circuits, changed the arrangement of breakers, etc.). My starter motor doesn't have an attached solenoid (like yours probably does) - so I show separate solenoids for starting. And, as I've noted in my previous comment - I use an ACR/RBS arrangement instead of a manual battery "1-2-Both-Off" switch.

When I bought the boat the wiring was a mess, so I replaced a LOT of stuff. The previous documentation was non-existent, which made the job a lot more effort than it needed to be. I had the original wiring diagram from Hinckley, but the previous owner had made many undocumented changes - so they were practically worthless (except for historical interest). So - I made these drawings for myself and the next owner using AutoCAD LT. I keep them folded in a three-ring binder along with the catalog cut sheets, installation instructions and other information for the various elements (e.g., panels, fuses, fixtures, etc.) of the electrical system. I have the same for the mechanical, plumbing, and electronic systems and for the rigging.

Your thoughts about the ELCI are spot on. An ELCI would protect against leakage in the system that would/may not be picked up by the GFCI outlet - like worn-through insulation. You'll need both an ELCI and GFCI outlets if you want to be ABYC compliant.

Anyway - hope this helps. PM me when you get farther along and we'll see if we can put together something for your efforts.
__________________
When I die, I want to go quietly, in my sleep; like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
rls8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2024, 10:05   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Southerly 480
Posts: 528
Images: 1
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

@rls8r - very impressive. I love your documentation. Do you use Autocad for work or did you learn it for your project?

@new-to-sailing - You definitely want an ELCI within 10' of shore power entering. You'll also want an isolation transformer or fail-safe galvanic isolator on the shore power ground. Given you're a 27' boat, the isolator is likely sufficient.
shimari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2024, 14:33   #8
Registered User
 
rls8r's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Chesapeake Bay - Galesville, MD
Boat: Hinckley, Bermuda 40 Mk III, 40'
Posts: 262
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Thanks shimari -

I used to use Civil3D quite a lot for larger projects, but now that I'm (semi) retired I mostly use AutoCAD LT. It comes in handy for things like this, as well as building things around the house.

I like the Attributes abilities. I can make the icon for a piece of equipment (say, a light fixture) into a block and give it attributes (e.g., make, model, manufacturer's part number, cost, location on boat, amperage, etc.). I can then see those attributes when I have CAD open, or I can export all (or a selection) of them to a CSV file that I can open in Excel.

I understand that there are free, open-source 2D CAD programs 'out there' - but I haven't used them.
__________________
When I die, I want to go quietly, in my sleep; like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
rls8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2024, 15:07   #9
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Credit, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 7,227
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by rls8r View Post
ELCI guards against current leakage that could endanger swimmers in the area and would reduce galvanic corrosion. Arguably, GFCI outlets could do that, but they trip at such a low amperage that it isn't feasible for them to provide "whole boat" protection. So - GFCI outlets are used in the head, galley, etc., while an ELCI is used to protect the "whole boat." The ELCI should be installed immediately after (in no case greater than 10') from the shore inlet.
Neither GFI's nor ELCI's have anything to do with "galvanic corrosion". They may have an effect on "stray current corrosion" but only if you have a bonded boat or a DC leak into the AC system.
__________________
If you're not laughing, you're not doin' it right.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2024, 16:19   #10
Registered User
 
rls8r's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Chesapeake Bay - Galesville, MD
Boat: Hinckley, Bermuda 40 Mk III, 40'
Posts: 262
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

boatpoker -

I was going to get into the matter of the AC-to-DC grounding connection, its potential relationship to corrosion (perhaps more accurately identified as 'stray current corrosion', as you say), and whether or not it is needed if a boat has an ELCI, but I thought the comment was already getting too long and I didn't want to complicate things. Sorry if I left things in a way that caused confusion.
__________________
When I die, I want to go quietly, in my sleep; like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
rls8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2024, 20:27   #11
Registered User
 
Matt Johnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Annapolis MD
Boat: Building a Max Cruise 44 hybrid electric cat
Posts: 3,234
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by rls8r View Post
I have several sheets that cover my DC wiring (see attached). They are a bit out-of-date since I've made some changes and haven't had a chance to update the drawings (e.g., changed engines and the new one doesn't have glow plugs, added DC breaker circuits, changed the arrangement of breakers, etc.). My starter motor doesn't have an attached solenoid (like yours probably does) - so I show separate solenoids for starting. And, as I've noted in my previous comment - I use an ACR/RBS arrangement instead of a manual battery "1-2-Both-Off" switch.

When I bought the boat the wiring was a mess, so I replaced a LOT of stuff. The previous documentation was non-existent, which made the job a lot more effort than it needed to be. I had the original wiring diagram from Hinckley, but the previous owner had made many undocumented changes - so they were practically worthless (except for historical interest). So - I made these drawings for myself and the next owner using AutoCAD LT. I keep them folded in a three-ring binder along with the catalog cut sheets, installation instructions and other information for the various elements (e.g., panels, fuses, fixtures, etc.) of the electrical system. I have the same for the mechanical, plumbing, and electronic systems and for the rigging.

Your thoughts about the ELCI are spot on. An ELCI would protect against leakage in the system that would/may not be picked up by the GFCI outlet - like worn-through insulation. You'll need both an ELCI and GFCI outlets if you want to be ABYC compliant.

Anyway - hope this helps. PM me when you get farther along and we'll see if we can put together something for your efforts.
Visually the nicest I've seen! Great job
__________________
MJSailing - Youtube Vlog -
Matt Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-05-2024, 04:48   #12
Registered User
 
Spot's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Minnesota, USA
Boat: Southwind 21 et al.
Posts: 1,766
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Johnson View Post
Visually the nicest I've seen! Great job
Yes, the PDF's from rls8r are awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rls8r
I understand that there are free, open-source 2D CAD programs 'out there' - but I haven't used them.
For doing schematics, where chosen symbols get connect with wires, I use KiCad. Freeware and is capable of basic PCB routings with a footprint library, etc. https://www.kicad.org/

For other basic 2D drafting, QCAD is a great freeware option for DXF files. https://www.qcad.org/en/

Today's exercise was to combine a KiCad schematic (plotted as DXF) with a plan view in QCAD:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	s21_schrmatic_dxf.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	238.3 KB
ID:	289996  
__________________
Big dreams, small boats...
Spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-05-2024, 06:01   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Thousand Islands
Boat: Tanzer 29
Posts: 11
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Great schematics from rls8r and Spot for sure! What label maker is the best to use to identify cables?
idclic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-05-2024, 07:13   #14
Registered User
 
rls8r's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Chesapeake Bay - Galesville, MD
Boat: Hinckley, Bermuda 40 Mk III, 40'
Posts: 262
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

idclic -

I'm not sure that it's the 'best' label maker, but I use the Dymo label maker that I got from the electrical section at Lowe's (although there certainly are other places that sell it). I've found that the labels really don't stick that well to boat cable, so I cover them with clear, non-adhesive heat shrink tubing. I'll put labels at the wire terminal and also from time-to-time down the run of the wire so if I have to fish the appropriate wire out of a bundle I'll know which one is which.

[Please excuse how crappy the wires look in the photo. I hadn't cleaned them up yet. I promise that they look much better now - but I don't have a current photo.]
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20190414_131557.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	402.0 KB
ID:	289997  
__________________
When I die, I want to go quietly, in my sleep; like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
rls8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-05-2024, 12:06   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Thousand Islands
Boat: Tanzer 29
Posts: 11
Re: Wiring Diagram Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by rls8r View Post
idclic -

I'm not sure that it's the 'best' label maker, but I use the Dymo label maker that I got from the electrical section at Lowe's (although there certainly are other places that sell it). I've found that the labels really don't stick that well to boat cable, so I cover them with clear, non-adhesive heat shrink tubing. I'll put labels at the wire terminal and also from time-to-time down the run of the wire so if I have to fish the appropriate wire out of a bundle I'll know which one is which.

[Please excuse how crappy the wires look in the photo. I hadn't cleaned them up yet. I promise that they look much better now - but I don't have a current photo.]
Thanks for the reply, looks like a good way to it, wonder if heat shrinking over the labels would further protect them. Probably the thermal paper would turn all black. I'll have to try and see what happens
idclic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
wiring

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Review Lifepo4 installation diagram please CaptainRivet Lithium Power Systems 4 09-03-2022 12:36
DC diagram review flee27 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 21 15-12-2020 12:26
2 pump Bilge Diagram; Asking for Technical Review Atcowboy Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 1 02-07-2020 09:08
Wallas 30DT review (includes review of ScanMarine Equipment) basssears Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 0 21-06-2016 11:59
380: Lagoon 380 User Review (15,500 Mile Review) 3Eagles Lagoon Catamarans 23 28-02-2013 17:25

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:05.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.