U.S. to close..

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I agree. Your government has been captured by the few and powerful -- those with money. It operates more like a plutocracy than a democracy.

Rolling on floor.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

The US is not a democracy.

Correct. It's a representative democracy.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is a perfect example of the system fragility I mentioned earlier. Technically Biden won't become the president-elect until all the state elections are certified AND the electoral college members cast their votes. But normal and traditional practice is that the loser of the election (and we know who that is) concedes so that the process of transition can begin asap.

The USA currently has a president who has shown either contempt for democratic traditions and norms, or simply is unaware (it's hard to know which it is). Either way, it illustrates the precarious nature of democracy in some of our democratic countries.

Indeed and the biggest contributor to attacking democracy , is the realisation by media savy politicians is you can treat the public like a reality tv show and simply invent your own truth that when endlessly parroted by social media and so called media outlets convinces people the nonsense you speak has some validity.

Hence the endless parroting of “ they stole our jobs/women/election “ ( delete as appropriate ) refrains even though no actual truth exists in any of it.

The same tactics were deployed by the Brexit groupings. Actual truth was submerged by a deluge of nonsense rabbited by sycophantic biased extreme media groupings. The “ nice guys” actually trying to explain the real truths are completely drowned out.

The nett effect is that over time every candidate will act as Trump did , making wild accusations , made up facts , outrageous lies etc simply because it’s gets airtime , results in social media hits and hence influencers

This is an extraordinary attack of democracy. Our democratic processes rely , to a lessor or greater extent on the candidates being “ more or less “ factual. Once you get someone that says “ hey F the rules “ our fragile democracy has very little built in protections from these people.

A study of Herr Hitlers political rise to power ( remember this man made the cover of time as the saviour of Germany ) shows very similar manipulations

For example the Weimar Republic has a massive shock to the lower middle classes and skilled working classes during the post 1929 crash , providing hitler with a society open to claims that it was caused by “ others “ , that he and he alone could make Germany great again , etc etc. The truth was completely submerged by the propaganda

Of course like others later the “ leader “ went on to claim success. Success that proved to be very fleeting indeed

I’m not making direct comparisons because the detail is very different , what I’m illustrating is that when the democratic processes ( as a general term ) are completely flouted , our processes have very little protections built in

Imagine if the European fascist movement had access to the amplification power of social media. The results might have been even more terrifying

The interwar post 1929 period in Europe is very interesting to study as there are many parallels , the rise of a polarised society , social unrest , massive financial shocks etc.

( and sorry for demonstrating godwins rule )

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

I need the guy rolling on the floor laughing emoji.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/u...elections.html

Exactly. It's easy when it affects someone else. When it gores our own ox, we all find exceptions.

The human brain excels at excusing our own behaviour, while finding fault in others. It's pretty amazing how self-delusional we can be -- ALL OF US.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Exactly. It's easy when it affects someone else. When it gores our own ox, we all find exceptions.

The human brain excels at excusing our own behaviour, while finding fault in others. It's pretty amazing how self-delusional we can be -- ALL OF US.

Do you hold the position that Biden won the election, as others here have stated, or are you of the opinion that Biden won the election?

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

That list hasn't been shown to say what you claim it says. Has anyone followed up, to establish that those votes weren't from living, legit voters?

I’m one of those odd people who trust my own eyeballs over some “expert”.

Ether the whole vote was fraudulent, or the voter was not properly IDed, ether way that vote should have NEVER made it anywhere other than a police report.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Many countries , in fact most are , just like the US , with various “ varieties “ of democracy. But we use the generic term “ democracy “ to mean countries where one person one vote is used in some manner to formulate governments

In that regard we can quite rightly call the US a democracy , ( even if right now I’m not so sure )

Hence nit picking the term and parroting “ constitutional republic “ is ridiculous

Ireland for example is a constitutional republic and a democracy even though we have a complex multi seat proportional transferable voting system.

In every election there will be spoiled votes and a very limited amount of planned premeditated voter fraud.

Nobody has presented evidence of legal quality that backs up any claim to systemic or materially relevant fraud in the recent election , in fact it has been described as the safest ever.

Trump lost , that’s the reality , I see he’s beginning to accept that. Let’s move on , mr Biden will be president, nothing more to see here

Sorry, but democracy is a fancy way of saying mob rule and that has no place in a free society.

My rights protect me from the government just as much as from a bunch of mouth breathers wanting to sell me down the river for some well marketed safety™

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Do you hold the position that Biden won the election, as others here have stated, or are you of the opinion that Biden won the election?

I am guided by evidence, data, and when those are unavailable to me, by the statements from credible experts (such as the courts). All these tell me Biden has won your election. But if credible evidence and actual data were to surface to show the opposite, I would follow that line.

So far, everything indicates a clear Biden victory. Normally this is when the other side formally concedes so as to allow the smooth continuance of a functioning government. But this is not codified. It requires parties show respect for democratic traditions. The current US president shows little such respect (outside of pardoning turkeys perhaps).

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

I’m one of those odd people who trust my own eyeballs over some “expert”.

Ether the whole vote was fraudulent, or the voter was not properly IDed, ether way that vote should have NEVER made it anywhere other than a police report.






Sorry, but democracy is a fancy way of saying mob rule and that has no place in a free society.

My rights protect me from the government just as much as from a bunch of mouth breathers wanting to sell me down the river for some well marketed safety[emoji769]

Democracy is a very generic term , it’s not generally represented as a pure majority solely based law making processes . About the only country that comes close is Switzerland where direct representation by the population is common

Interesting I don’t see Switzerland’s democracy selling anyone down the river

For the rest of us including the US we clearly have a “ form “ of democracy , typically some form of parliamentary democracy where a “ representative “ government proces results from a ballot system.

Merely because the US has an electoral college system or a state by state based senate /house elections doesn’t mean it’s not a democracy in the generic sense.

Many countries have federal style government electoral processes etc.

Your “ rights “ are nothing more then a societal agreement to allow you those rights and history shows us societies can and do upend those rights on occasion

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

... There are really two points to be made: The chart published by Dockhead – above - is also very useful in that it shows that the term “lockdown” – alone – means very little ...

Indeed.
In MY mental arithmetic, I calculated nearly all the listed L2 categories, as being included, in some vectoral fashion, in (my definition) of a “national lockdown”.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I am guided by evidence, data, and when those are unavailable to me, by the statements from credible experts (such as the courts). All these tell me Biden has won your election. But if credible evidence and actual data were to surface to show the opposite, I would follow that line.

So far, everything indicates a clear Biden victory. Normally this is when the other side formally concedes so as to allow the smooth continuance of a functioning government. But this is not codified. It requires parties show respect for democratic traditions. The current US president shows little such respect (outside of pardoning turkeys perhaps).

Would you concede the election before votes are certified and while hearings are underway?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=ZYtwfyi78Bs

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Do you hold the position that Biden won the election, as others here have stated, or are you of the opinion that Biden won the election?

I am much more interested in your opinion about who's been elected, than Mike's. Really.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I am much more interested in your opinion about who's been elected, than Mike's. Really.

Thanks for asking.

I do not know who has been elected and I have no opinion on the matter.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Would you concede the election before votes are certified and while hearings are underway?

If the evidence was clear (as it currently is) that I'd lost, then YES -- just as EVERY past losing president has done.

It's part of that unwritten portion of the system which is so critical for its smooth operation, and yet so fragile when faced with an individual who has no respect for these traditions.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Thanks for asking.

I do not know who has been elected and I have no opinion on the matter.

I believe your first statement, but not the second. Just my perception.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If the evidence was clear (as it currently is) that I'd lost, then YES -- just as EVERY past losing president has done.

It's part of that unwritten portion of the system which is so critical for its smooth operation, and yet so fragile when faced with an individual who has no respect for these traditions.

You state as a fact that the evidence is clear that Trump lost.

Others have a right to disagree with what you present as fact.

Can you prove that Trump lost?