U.S. to close..

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Many countries , in fact most are , just like the US , with various “ varieties “ of democracy. But we use the generic term “ democracy “ to mean countries where one person one vote is used in some manner to formulate governments

In that regard we can quite rightly call the US a democracy , ( even if right now I’m not so sure )

Hence nit picking the term and parroting “ constitutional republic “ is ridiculous

Ireland for example is a constitutional republic and a democracy even though we have a complex multi seat proportional transferable voting system.

In every election there will be spoiled votes and a very limited amount of planned premeditated voter fraud.

Nobody has presented evidence of legal quality that backs up any claim to systemic or materially relevant fraud in the recent election , in fact it has been described as the safest ever.

Trump lost , that’s the reality , I see he’s beginning to accept that. Let’s move on , mr Biden will be president, nothing more to see here

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YGL8CiUtXF0

Watch to the end and listen for a mention of Cruisers Forum.

[atoll]

BREAKING NEWS!
Trumps missing 10 million votes found in metal box in Utah..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwKCowZlgAc

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Can you provide a cite for this?

A cite that Biden was elected, or a cite that Trump is starting to accept this fact?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

... I posted a link showing people older than any human who had voted, the chance of that occurring is near zero. Voter fraud is a very real thing, the only question is has it been enough of a issue to actually change anything ...

What we have here, is an unverified/unverifiable chart, of unknown/dubious origin, presented (as is Sue’s wont) without context.

SalingSue actually posted a screenshot in post #806*.
*806 ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3280007

Evidently, SalingSue’s screenshot was sourced from Liberty Nation’s* website:
Liberty nation Showing general election mail ballot requests
➥ https://www.libertynation.com/in-pa-...d-95-or-older/

Liberty Nation claims that, their source is the “data set on data.pa.gov” for ballot applications approved and returned for this election cycle, but their link leads to a ‘502 Bad Gateway’.
Liberty Nation Link to Govt Data ➥ https://data.pa.gov/Government-Effic...artm/mcba-yywm


Taken out of context, some voter registration information may appear to suggest suspicious activity, but are actually innocuous clerical errors or the result of intended data practices.
For example:
- Election officials in some states use temporary placeholder data for registrants whose birth date or year is not known (e.g., 1/1/1900, which makes such registrants appear to be 120 years old).
- In other instances, a voting-age child with the same name and address as their deceased parent could be misinterpreted as a deceased voter or lead to clerical errors.
Liberty Nation notes:
In the interest of full disclosure, Pennsylvania’s .gov webpage displays an explanation: “The reason some birth dates will display as 1/1/1800 is due to confidentiality reasons of the registered voters. Usually, this is for victims of domestic violence.”
They also claim that “This explanation of birthdates was absent (prior to November 6).

* FWLIW: Liberty Nation is a conservative, libertarian, propaganda outlet, owned by One Generation Away, a tax-exempt 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, with a conservative agenda.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

I agree with all but the last part, I posted a link showing people older than any human who had voted, the chance of that occurring is near zero. Voter fraud is a very real thing, the only question is has it been enough of a issue to actually change anything.

Amusing how everyone agrees..., until it challenges our own beliefs.

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Also the US isn’t a democracy, it’s a constitutional republic

I explained this earlier. Democracy is a method of choosing a government. A constitutional republic is a form of government. Your contrast is a non sequitur.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

A cite that Biden was elected, or a cite that Trump is starting to accept this fact?

A cite for everything mentioned in the quote.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

A cite for everything mentioned in the quote.

Trump has now included Biden in the presidents daily brief

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

A cite for everything mentioned in the quote.

Dang, GBN beat me to it. But I can at least include a link, which mentions the transition, but also that Trump hasn't conceded. Should be an exciting finale. You paid for 4 years, you'll get 4 years. That's value!

[Mike OReilly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect
A cite that Biden was elected, or a cite that Trump is starting to accept this fact?

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

A cite for everything mentioned in the quote.

This is a perfect example of the system fragility I mentioned earlier. Technically Biden won't become the president-elect until all the state elections are certified AND the electoral college members cast their votes. But normal and traditional practice is that the loser of the election (and we know who that is) concedes so that the process of transition can begin asap.

The USA currently has a president who has shown either contempt for democratic traditions and norms, or simply is unaware (it's hard to know which it is). Either way, it illustrates the precarious nature of democracy in some of our democratic countries.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is a perfect example of the system fragility I mentioned earlier. Technically Biden won't become the president-elect until all the state elections are certified AND the electoral college members cast their votes. But normal and traditional practice is that the loser of the election (and we know who that is) concedes so that the process of transition can begin asap.

The USA currently has a president who has shown either contempt for democratic traditions and norms, or simply is unaware (it's hard to know which it is). Either way, it illustrates the precarious nature of democracy in some of our democratic countries.

The US is not a democracy.

[Jason Flare]

I need the guy rolling on the floor laughing emoji.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/u...elections.html

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

"Actively communicate with managers" ...srsly?

Important info to be gathering, but considering how many places enacted lockdowns as a late, last resort move... The places that implemented a strict lockdown quickly did pretty good. If this assessment doesn't take the timing into account, then it's not that definitive.

I don't claim at all that it's definitive, and I don't actually think it is definitive. All it is is just SOME actually scientific study, at least something to go on besides our own gut instincts. I think definitive proof about the effectiveness of any given measure taken by itself will be pretty much impossible based on the kind of data we have, where every country has taken a whole cocktail of different measures. They use scientific methods to untangle these from each other, but I doubt those methods are fool-proof. I think you would need some controlled experiments to really prove it.

If you read the whole study (it's worthwhile), you'll see that timing is taken into account, and the authors opine that very early lockdowns may be valuable.

I'm surprised by some of the conclusions -- closing national borders and closing schools has been considered to be relatively ineffective by the Danish and Norwegian health authorities, on the basis of their own research. Here they are shown, on the contrary, to be very effective.

So I don't know. But anyway it's very interesting reading. The comments are probably more valuable than the tables. The general position lines up with what WHO is saying. And what health authorities around here are saying. I think there is a fair amount of weight of opinion among professionals in favor of this view, which doesn't, however, prove that it's right.

[Capn Jimbo]

Originally Posted by GordMay

That's NOT at all how I read the study.

“Ranking the effectiveness of worldwide COVID-19 government interventions”
~ by Nils Haug et al

“... Our results indicate that a suitable combination of NPIs* is necessary to curb the spread of the virus. Less disruptive and costly NPIs can be as effective as more intrusive, drastic, ones (for example, a national lockdown). Using country-specific ‘what-if’ scenarios, we assess how the effectiveness of NPIs depends on the local context such as timing of their adoption, opening the way for forecasting the effectiveness of future interventions ...

... We showed that the most effective measures include closing and restricting most places where people gather in smaller or larger numbers for extended periods of time (businesses, bars, schools and so on). However, we also find several highly effective measures that are less intrusive. These include land border restrictions, governmental support to vulnerable populations and risk-communication strategies. We strongly recommend that governments and other stakeholders first consider the adoption of such NPIs, tailored to the local context, should infection numbers surge (or surge a second time), before choosing the most intrusive options. Less drastic measures may also foster better compliance from the population...”

➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...=deeplink#Sec2

* NPIs = Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions

Agreed - this is the same paragraph I would have cited. The study - preliminary mind you - seems reasonably well done with solid data sources and makes clear that one size does not fit all. It also emphasizes the need for flexibility. This has been borne out in the experience of different countries at different times.


There are really two points to be made: The chart published by Dockhead – above - is also very useful in that it shows that the term “lockdown” – alone – means very little.

For example in the world of public health a “lockdown” is rated by various professional entities using many categories. For example the FT rates “lockdowns” from 0 to 100 based on adherence and extent of about 45 categories, each with about 4 levels of compliance.

Countries and regions are thus rated differently. A lockdown rating of say 10 means only a few actions were taken to lesser degrees, while a score of 75 would indicate many different actions to a larger degree. No country has a lockdown score of 0; none score 100. Further, the country scores are constantly changing, even from month to month.

Thus the notion that “lockdowns” do or don’t work – without qualification – means little. In public health we have many tools – hundreds of different actions, TTQ (test/trace/quarantine), coordination of public participation and useful actions (eg masks, social distancing), structural changes to business places, financial support of the public, and many more – these all work together.

Simplistically for example: a strict lockdown can quickly reduce numbers, but must be accompanied by a wartime effort to produce equipment, PPE (personal protective equipment), facilities and skilled personnel, coordination, and especially TTQ. The goal is to reduce numbers to a controllable level via TTQ and the ability of the health care system to accommodate all needs (Covid or not).

Lockdowns – from mild to wild – alone – without the rest, of course will fail. Numbers will be brought down, but without TTQ and adequate care, will go right back up. Exhibit A: what’s happening now in the United States especially.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

The US is not a democracy.

I agree. Your government has been captured by the few and powerful -- those with money. It operates more like a plutocracy than a democracy.

[Singularity]

How an AI Tool Distinguishes Between a Conspiracy Theory and a True Conspiracy
Machine learning is helping decipher outright conspiracy theories.
https://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tec...piracy/170309/

Insofar as people don't believe the actual experts on matters, or they believe the experts but don't care anyway when the expert says that the future is bad, I don't know if it matters that AI can explain to people why they are wrong +/- delusional. But the technology is there, and it can be (is already) used such that ballot-stuffing is really a needlessly complicated way of disrupting a population, fragmenting it, destabilizing it, making it weaker.