Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I am not convinced he was “widely” loved.

There were certainly open dissenters. If they survived they tended to end up in a gulag.

There were grumblings in the general population as well. The tongue in cheek rhyme “the sickle and hammer will demolish hunger” was widely quietly muttered.

SWL

Well, it's a fact that Stalin was widely loved, even worshipped. If you read much in Russian literature -- a lot of people have confessed to this feeling. Look at the photographs of huge masses of wailing people at his funeral. The desire to be under a "strong leader", or under "bold action" rules in a crisis, is powerful, and can overwhelm the good sense of even pretty intelligent people. A certain number of people understood the true horror of the regime; but it was certainly a minority. It is simply amazing what fear, and the seduction of ruthless power over you can do. "It's for our own good" -- people tell themselves.

Solzhenitsyn says everything you want to know on the matter; worshipping of Stalin extended even into the camps. The Gulag Archipelgo is full of stories which will remind you of today -- prisoners betraying each other, cravenly loving their own oppressors. But even better than this is Dombrovsky, Faculty of Useless Knowledge. Another gulag internee, but a much better writer than Solzhenitsyn. Read it! You will thank me later.

"Human nature is full of riddles; . . . one of those riddles is: how is it that people who have been crushed by the sheer weight of slavery and cast to the bottom of the pit can nevertheless find strength in themselves to rise up and free themselves first in spirit and then in body while those who soar unhampered over the peaks of freedom suddenly lose the taste of freedom, lose the will to defend it, and, hopelessly confused and lost, almost begin to crave slavery?”

"To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he's doing is good."

Both from Solzhenitsyn.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You think? I guess another human trait is the need for some people to see freedom circling the toilet bowl from every slight they feel due to policies they disagree with.

The infringements of freedom during the pandemic are pretty much unprecedented in peace time in democratic countries. Confining people to their homes for months at a time under threat of jail time; forbidding people from having any social contact with each other; some countries even forbade their citizens to leave the country or travel between regions.



Whether or not these infringements were worth it is debatable; many of them probably really were necessary. But even where they were worthwhile, it does not do to brush aside the question.


Especially -- and I have pointed this out before -- when the infringements are affecting other people in different socio-economic situations and stages of life -- much more severely than they are affecting you.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The infringements of freedom during the pandemic are pretty much unprecedented in peace time in democratic countries. Confining people to their homes for months at a time under threat of jail time; forbidding people from having any social contact with each other; some countries even forbade their citizens to leave the country or travel between regions.



Whether or not these infringements were worth it is debatable; many of them probably really were necessary. But even where they were worthwhile, it does not do to brush aside the question.


Especially -- and I have pointed this out before -- when the infringements are affecting other people in different socio-economic situations and stages of life -- much more severely than they are affecting you.

What exact question are we brushing aside

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Paul L

For someone that doesn't like the exaggeration that causes dysfunction and polarization, that is a pretty bold statement on Halloween. I'm not in the US right now, but from the Facebook feed from my neighborhood back there, it seems like there's lots of Halloween preping going on.

Yes, I hope this type of woke thinking below is just an extreme example , but one has to wonder






Banning Halloween takes another bit of fun from kids

Fri., Oct. 15, 2021timer1*min. read

Halloween celebrations discouraged at public schools*— Oct. 14
So the Waterloo Region District School Board believes that children celebrating Halloween at school might “cause harm, discriminate against or exclude marginalized groups” as the article tells it?


For kids who have had nothing but disruption in their school experience for a year and a half, did anyone making these policy decisions stop to think about the benefits of adding the tiniest bit of fun — yes, fun — back into the daily school routine for just a couple of hours this October?
There are so many ways students could opt to participate (or not), that respecting different cultures and differing opinions seems quite doable.
Want to wear a costume? Great. Don’t want to? Great.
It doesn’t even have to be the full-blown class party that students used to look forward to, just a sliver of time in the day to show their creative side, let their imaginations take over, and pretend to be someone or something else for an hour or two.

“Halloween is not an essential part of learning in school,” the school board official is quoted as saying.
.

https://www.therecord.com/opinion/le...from-kids.html

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The infringements of freedom during the pandemic are pretty much unprecedented in peace time in democratic countries. Confining people to their homes for months at a time under threat of jail time; forbidding people from having any social contact with each other; some countries even forbade their citizens to leave the country or travel between regions.



Whether or not these infringements were worth it is debatable; many of them probably really were necessary. But even where they were worthwhile, it does not do to brush aside the question.


Especially -- and I have pointed this out before -- when the infringements are affecting other people in different socio-economic situations and stages of life -- much more severely than they are affecting you.

So where were people confined to their home for months at a time besides perhaps Wuhan? It did not happen in any of the countries I have been in. Not in the US, Singapore, Malaysia, Maldives, Seychelles, Mayotte. From your descriptions it did not happen in Northern Europe. So back to more hyperbole.

Then you add to the argument many of these were needed making it pretty hard to logically argue against.


How bout we play a what if game where just one country didn't do the major government interventional response to the pandemic. Let's take one with a big economy, say the US. No federal intervention, no giant stimulus plans, no vaccine development funding, no masks, no social distancing, no lockdowns, no extra ventilators, no travel restrictions. Now since you aren't running the country or making the scenario you don't get to cherry pick what the interventions are. The US goes into a recession, let's call it the Great Recession II. Conincidently the rest of the world follows suit. Now let's compare the great harm that you feel is being inflicted on people now versus the harm that would be inflicted in this scenario. Heck, even the wealthy, upper middle class, white collar, real estate owning group might feel tinge of harm.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Paul L

So where were people confined to their home for months at a time besides perhaps Wuhan? It did not happen in any of the countries I have been in…..

This occurred in parts of Europe and Australia, just to name two locations.

Both in the UK and parts of Australia people have been confined to their homes for months at a time, being permitted to leave only for “essential purposes” (eg an hours exercise a day or one person at a time per household grocery shopping etc).

eg Scotland had stay-at-home lockdowns for over two months from March to May 2020 and three months January to April 2021. All of the UK was nearly the same.

Melbourne in Australia had stay-at-home lockdowns (mainly with a curfew) for over three months July to October 2020 and two months August to October 2021 (this will end on Friday, but with other severe restrictions still in place).

Sydney’s last stay-at-home lockdown extended for almost 4 months late June 2021 to last Monday.

When the lockdowns overlapped in Melbourne and Sydney nearly half of Australia’s population was subjected to not leaving home except for “essential” purposes.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

This occurred in parts of Europe and Australia, just to name two locations.

Both in the UK and parts of Australia people have been confined to their homes for months at a time, being permitted to leave only for “essential purposes” (eg an hours exercise a day or one person at a time per household grocery shopping etc).

....

Like I said hyperbole. They were not locked in their homes for 2 months. There was restricted travel and a list of essential reasons they could go out, including as you mention shopping, excercise, etc. So say that instead of hyping up with locked inside for two months.
People have been literally locked in their homes for short periods in places like Wuhan or in isolated buildings in Malaysia that had active Covid cases. But it just isn't the country locked in their homes for two months hype thrown out here to drive the posters points.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

This occurred in parts of Europe and Australia, just to name two locations.

Both in the UK and parts of Australia people have been confined to their homes for months at a time, being permitted to leave only for “essential purposes” (eg an hours exercise a day or one person at a time per household grocery shopping etc).

....

Like I said hyperbole. They were not locked in their homes for 2 months. There was restricted travel and a list of essential reasons they could go out, including as you mention shopping, excercise, etc. So say that instead of hyping up with locked inside for two months.
People have been literally locked in their homes for short periods in places like Wuhan or in isolated buildings in Malaysia that had active Covid cases. But it just isn't the country locked in their homes for two months hype thrown out here to drive the posters points.
God help you if you say some country in Scandinavia had a lockdown in this thread. The CF dictionary police will be out immediately telling you no they didn't, that's not THE definition of lockdown.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Like I said hyperbole. They were not locked in their homes for 2 months. There was restricted travel and a list of essential reasons they could go out, including as you mention shopping, excercise, etc. So say that instead of hyping up with locked inside for two months.
People have been literally locked in their homes for short periods in places like Wuhan or in isolated buildings in Malaysia that had active Covid cases. But it just isn't the country locked in their homes for two months hype thrown out here to drive the posters points.

There is no need to use derogatory terms such as “hyperbole” and “hype” to describe members’ posts even if you disagree with them.

You have used the term “locked in their homes” not me, so don’t twist my words please. “Lockdown” is a widely used term for various measures taken around the world during this pandemic that indicates enforced restricted movement and interaction with others.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Like I said hyperbole. They were not locked in their homes for 2 months. There was restricted travel and a list of essential reasons they could go out, including as you mention shopping, excercise, etc. So say that instead of hyping up with locked inside for two months.

People have been literally locked in their homes for short periods in places like Wuhan or in isolated buildings in Malaysia that had active Covid cases. But it just isn't the country locked in their homes for two months hype thrown out here to drive the posters points.

In 2020 in Subic, if over 60, you were not allowed to leave your home for any reason.....
Others were supposed to do the shopping for you or you had food delivered.
Similar restrictions for the under 16

Only One Person from each household had a quarantine pass to go shopping only on specific days.Total lockdown in all other cases for the rest of the family and you could not even walk around your neighborhood street for excercise

Even today, in some places, hotels are not allowed to take reservations for people over 65

People are still going to jail for lying about their residence so they can travel

It is not hyperbole as it does exist, but also mass confusion because local administrators and security personnel were/are enforcing or ignoring their own interpretation of rules ... stupidly.

Only recently they finally allowed you to be outside without a Face Shield , just a mask.
But a few days ago, Zaida was not allowed to enter the track field for a jog, because she had no Face Shield
Guard said, she might need it, so needs to carry one even outside and had to go back to car to retrieve it

The problem is in the uneven and stupid enforcement of misunderstood rules, by those in authority.

Of course, those in authority have their own set of rules and exemptions

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

There is no need to use derogatory terms such as “hyperbole” and “hype” to describe members’ posts even if you disagree with them...

According to Webster, the essential meaning of hyperbole is:
Language that describes something as better or worse than it really is.
Unless one has a fanatical obsession with absolute, literal, truth, how is that derogatory?

Hyperbole can be an amusing, and useful literary device, that spices conversation, and enriches literature*; but in advertising, and news reporting, it’s often used to evoke fear, and dread, or spread disinformation.


* In 'To Kill a Mockingbird', Harper Lee uses hyperbole to emphasize the slow, dull pace of life in the town.
"A day was twenty-four hours long but seemed longer. There was no hurry, for there was nowhere to go, nothing to buy and no money to buy it with, nothing to see outside the boundaries of Maycomb County."



Hype is another animal.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

…..
"To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he's doing is good."

Both from Solzhenitsyn.

Solzhenitsyn had a far finer mind than mine, but this quote seemed so wrong that I delved further .

There was no full stop after “good”. This is the full quote:

“To do evil a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good, or else that it’s a well-considered act in conformity with natural law. . . . it is in the nature of a human being to seek a justification for his actions.”

Natural law I guess refers to moral principles? These have varied very widely not only between people, cultures and religions, but whole populations over time, let alone species. To me, “natural law” is a very personal, not universal term so it can be used to justify any action.

Sorry about the thread drift, but the quote you presented intrigued me.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What exact question are we brushing aside

The question of whether any given measure is worth is or not. Closing schools, locking people in their homes, etc. The question of whether any given measure does more harm than good.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

There is no need to use derogatory terms such as “hyperbole” and “hype” to describe members’ posts even if you disagree with them.

You have used the term “locked in their homes” not me, so don’t twist my words please. “Lockdown” is a widely used term for various measures taken around the world during this pandemic that indicates enforced restricted movement and interaction with others.

Very sorry I said locked in their homes when you actually said 'confined to their homes for months'.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by GordMay

According to Webster, the essential meaning of hyperbole is:
Language that describes something as better or worse than it really is.
Unless one has a fanatical obsession with absolute, literal, truth, how is that derogatory?

Hyperbole can be an amusing, and useful literary device, that spices conversation, and enriches literature; but in advertising, and news reporting, it’s often used to evoke fear, and dread.

Hype is another animal.

Gord, the use of pedantics to obfuscate SWL's point is a cheap shot.