Covid vaccination status for CF members

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by sagablu

Hey lake,

How do I get into that paid propagandist action? Can you ask your propaganda masters if there's room for one more? If it helps I'll get a " I love George Soros sweatshirt"!

Thanks for recommendation, always looking for another income stream.

(Sarcasm alert!)

Calling LE a paid propagandist when you obviously don’t know that to be true is lowering yourselves to participating in the sort of identity politics usually employed by the left. I know it can be frustrating when someone doesn’t see things your way but it accomplishes nothing to call someone names or make unfounded accusations about them rather than using your brain to formulate an effective argument against the ideas they are putting forth. I don’t happen to agree with almost anything regarding Lakes political views and was recently astounded that he didn’t seem to understand that taxpayers were actually responsible for paying back government debt or that inflation hurt people on fixed incomes. Suddenly i understood how he could believe in such crazy “ progressive” political ideas. If you don’t understand that government debt has to be paid back or that paying ever increasing amounts of interest on ever increasing debt hurts future generations of real peoples standard of living, then why not just blithely keep borrowing and using that money to pass out party favors to anyone who will vote for you? Or just drive up inflation and pay back the debt with inflated dollars worth half what they were when the money was borrowed? SO clever, except the high inflation hurts the spending power and standard of living of everyone whose pay doesn’t follow the rate of inflation, all those retirees on fixed incomes. Somehow, LE didn’t understand that, which I find incredible, but why call him names? Instead, I tried to explain why these policies weren’t such a great idea and how they hurt lots of people in very real ways. Maybe he’s so set in his ways that he can’t be convinced but maybe someone else reading it would see the errors in his way of thinking about these issues of government debt and inflation.

But I don’t see vaccines or this pandemic as a political issue. I recognize that lots of people on the right and the left have tried to make it political but to me it’s not political at all and I think that what LE has to say about it is generally correct. Its really pretty simple. The vaccine slows the spread of a deadly disease and more who are vaccinated the closer we get to not having to worry about it any more. So do your small part towards ending this and get the jab!

As for the idea that someone would actually pay someone like LE to come on this site to spread misinformation seems pretty silly since there are so few of us it would be a waste of money and a hugely inefficient way to get their ideas out. But then, if there are more of them that don’t understand that there’s no free lunch, even regarding government debt or inflating your way to prosperity, then maybe....., but it’s still not a good idea to call people names or make unfounded accusations about them. If you have proof that LE is a paid troll, then present that proof to the mods, but until then, please knock off the name calling and unfounded accusations because it only hurts your own credibility by making it look like you don’t have a logical argument to refute LE’s ideas.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Calling LE a paid propagandist when you obviously don’t know that to be true is lowering yourselves to participating in the sort of identity politics usually employed by the left. I know it can be frustrating when someone doesn’t see things your way but it accomplishes nothing to call someone names or make unfounded accusations about them rather than using your brain to formulate an effective argument against the ideas they are putting forth. I don’t happen to agree with almost anything regarding Lakes political views and was recently astounded that he didn’t seem to understand that taxpayers were actually responsible for paying back government debt or that inflation hurt people on fixed incomes. Suddenly i understood how he could believe in such crazy “ progressive” political ideas. If you don’t understand that government debt has to be paid back or that paying ever increasing amounts of interest on ever increasing debt hurts future generations of real peoples standard of living, then why not just blithely keep borrowing and using that money to pass out party favors to anyone who will vote for you? Or just drive up inflation and pay back the debt with inflated dollars worth half what they were when the money was borrowed? SO clever, except the high inflation hurts the spending power and standard of living of everyone whose pay doesn’t follow the rate of inflation, all those retirees on fixed incomes. Somehow, LE didn’t understand that, which I find incredible, but why call him names? Instead, I tried to explain why these policies weren’t such a great idea and how they hurt lots of people in very real ways. Maybe he’s so set in his ways that he can’t be convinced but maybe someone else reading it would see the errors in his way of thinking about these issues of government debt and inflation.

.....

You make it out as if deficits are cuased by the policies implemented by the left, missing out on the fact that the party that claims fiscal responsibility in the US creates just as much debt each time they get in power:

The four presidents with the worst deficits have been Barack Obama, Donald Trump, George W. Bush, and Ronald Reagan

The previous administration only increased the deficit 33%.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You make it out as if deficits are cuased by the policies implemented by the left, missing out on the fact that the party that claims fiscal responsibility in the US creates just as much debt each time they get in power:

The previous administration only increased the deficit 33%.

So let's ignore the left right conversation and just focus on the compounding downstream effects of debt. Discussing this should be possible without blame instead focusing on outcomes short and long.

[GordMay]

“US Budget Deficit by Year Compared to GDP, Debt Increase, and Events
A Look at Trends and the Deficit-Debt Dynamic” ~ by Kimberly Amadeo, Reviewed by Janet Berry-Johnson

The deficit should be compared to the country's ability to pay it back. That ability is measured by the deficit divided by gross domestic product (GDP).

The deficit since 1929 is compared to the increase in the debt, nominal GDP, and national events.

Much more ➥ https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by danstanford

So let's ignore the left right conversation and just focus on the compounding downstream effects of debt. Discussing this should be possible without blame instead focusing on outcomes short and long.

Sure, as both main stream US parties clearly create massive debt, no matter what they say. But if you are going to look at the facts instead of the spin, you have to consider that the sky-is-falling debt will cause massive inflation mantra of the last 20 years just hasn't turned out to be true.
My approach is that in good economic times you rein in the budget (think Clinton) and don't increase spending or cut taxes (think Trump). In bad times you continue to invest in the economy.

Does the debt need to be paid back. So far we've shown that it doesn't. If the US dollar lost its position as the worlds reserve currency then maybe the debt repayment would be a bigger deal.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I don’t happen to agree with almost anything regarding Lakes political views and was recently astounded that he didn’t seem to understand that taxpayers were actually responsible for paying back government debt or that inflation hurt people on fixed incomes. Suddenly i understood how he could believe in such crazy “ progressive” political ideas.

Not the thread to really get into it, but the world no longer operates like a small hardware store that grants accounts. Wealth and debt are created or destroyed in a heartbeat by ideas, policies and decisions. As Gord and Paul have shown, self-described US conservative leaders have increased the debt, and the current debt level, as scary as the big numbers are, is still not the highest, as a percentage of GDP, in recent US history. Trump poured a little bit of gas on Obama's slow, steady recovery from the deeper lows of the 2008 crash... and Trump is hailed as the economic genius?

And, for heaven's sake, this is wartime. The pandemic is a world war, and getting through it with the least possible immediate damage, including economic, will minimize the longer-term damage.

But I don’t see vaccines or this pandemic as a political issue. I recognize that lots of people on the right and the left have tried to make it political but to me it’s not political at all and I think that what LE has to say about it is generally correct. Its really pretty simple. The vaccine slows the spread of a deadly disease and more who are vaccinated the closer we get to not having to worry about it any more. So do your small part towards ending this and get the jab!

On this we agree.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You make it out as if deficits are cuased by the policies implemented by the left, missing out on the fact that the party that claims fiscal responsibility in the US creates just as much debt each time they get in power:



The previous administration only increased the deficit 33%.

That’s true and I realize that, but right now it’s the lefts turn to do their level best to trump Trump at the losing game of deficit spending! No matter which party does it, we taxpayers get stuck paying the Bill one way or the other. No matter how many ways they dream up to call it something else, it’s still spending money now (something we all like to do) and expecting someone else to pay for it.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Not the thread to really get into it, but the world no longer operates like a small hardware store that grants accounts. Wealth and debt are created or destroyed in a heartbeat by ideas, policies and decisions. As Gord and Paul have shown, self-described US conservative leaders have increased the debt, and the current debt level, as scary as the big numbers are, is still not the highest, as a percentage of GDP, in recent US history. Trump poured a little bit of gas on Obama's slow, steady recovery from the deeper lows of the 2008 crash... and Trump is hailed as the economic genius?

And, for heaven's sake, this is wartime. The pandemic is a world war, and getting through it with the least possible immediate damage, including economic, will minimize the longer-term damage.
.

I consider Trump more of a populist than a Conservative and I agree he spent too much money we don’t have. I also agree that this is wartime but most of the money being borrowed isn’t planned to be spent on winning that war and instead is being spent on paying off political debts and furthering a certain political ideology. IF it truly were being spent on fighting Covid and saving those who have been economically savaged by it, I’d be all for it. But why should college students get paid more to stay home then their hard working friends can make doing productive work, and why should by 91 year old mother get an extra few thousand $$ from the government when her income hasn’t changed snd her expenses have decreased, and why should public school systems that do a crappy job of preparing our kids to compete for jobs globally and have been mostly closed for the past year get rewarded with hundreds of millions? That’s not winning the war against Covid, it’s just wasteful pork barrel politics.

[Argyle38]

2nd Pfizer two days ago. Sore arm yesterday, extending down the arm and in to the shoulder a bit. A bit lethargic but that might just be being lazy. Arm is just a little sore today.

A bit disappointed in that I still don't seem to be getting any super powers. Always wanted to be a vampire but it appears that hasn't happened either. I'm considering suing Pfizer for $3.2B for the lost investment gains I could have had over the next 1000 years or so if I had achieved immortality. PM me if you want to make it a class action. Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.

Anyone who is worried about me shedding my excess spike proteins can feel free to steer clear of me. If you see me around the boatyards, marinas and boat shows of the east coast US, I'm the white guy with a dad bod and a beard wearing a Tilley hat. Can't miss me.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I consider Trump more of a populist than a Conservative and I agree he spent too much money we don’t have. I also agree that this is wartime but most of the money being borrowed isn’t planned to be spent on winning that war and instead is being spent on paying off political debts and furthering a certain political ideology. IF it truly were being spent on fighting Covid and saving those who have been economically savaged by it, I’d be all for it. But why should college students get paid more to stay home then their hard working friends can make doing productive work, and why should by 91 year old mother get an extra few thousand $$ from the government when her income hasn’t changed snd her expenses have decreased, and why should public school systems that do a crappy job of preparing our kids to compete for jobs globally and have been mostly closed for the past year get rewarded with hundreds of millions? That’s not winning the war against Covid, it’s just wasteful pork barrel politics.

A big lesson of 2008 is that too much of the recovery/stimulus money was poured into the top end of the market, effectively rewarding those who created the conditions for a crash, and that not enough of than money made it down to the many people hurt or bankrupted by the crash. This time around, more of that stimulus money has made it into the hands of those most hurt by the pandemic and the efforts to control it. You've only highlighted exceptional examples, ignoring the many people and small businesses who are squeaking by thanks to the government injections. Nonetheless, the 91 yr old, the college students, most people... they're all going to spend that money, or reduce their personal debt, magnifying its effect.

Note how many companies took government aid (measured in millions), and boosted their dividends, bought back some of their own stock, paid bonuses... just one of these absolutely dwarfs the largesse of any perceived overpayment to tens of thousands of little people. It would be more efficient to rail against those payouts, if you're seeking to rebalance things.

Was there an "over-response", with too much money dumped in? Maybe. Most informed opinions that I have read confirm that most government economic responses have prevented a deeper crash, sped up the economic recovery, and laid the groundwork for more recovery as restrictions ease.

We won't be able to really do the balance sheet for a year or two yet... but given the choice between increased national debt, and the disaster scenario of increased illness and death, and an order of magnitude more personal and small business bankruptcies, leading to real estate crash and the lasting effects of all that... I think that national debt is the easier problem to fix. AND... history might show that the massive early stimulus might yet prove to be the least expensive approach overall.

[Talk Story]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Immediate Use of Ivermectin Medicine Globally Can End COVID-19 Pandemic https://weather.com/en-IN/india/coro...id-19-pandemic

Took my 6mg of Ivermectin this morning after traveling to Mexico and a long way back to home!

Most of this thread is just red state/blue state election redux... unreadable, unless you thrive on that IMHO.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

A big lesson of 2008 is that too much of the recovery/stimulus money was poured into the top end of the market, effectively rewarding those who created the conditions for a crash, and that not enough of than money made it down to the many people hurt or bankrupted by the crash. This time around, more of that stimulus money has made it into the hands of those most hurt by the pandemic and the efforts to control it.

Did you read the Globe story today LE? Seems most of the benefits of all our pandemic relief continue to flow to wealthy corporations, many of whom did not need it:

Wage subsidies were meant to preserve jobs. In many cases, the $110.6-billion response padded bottom lines

The Trudeau government said CEWS would be a lifeline to struggling employers in the pandemic. But when The Globe compiled a list of who got money, and how much, it showed many firms weren’t struggling at all in the lean months of 2020.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Did you read the Globe story today LE? Seems most of the benefits of all our pandemic relief continue to flow to wealthy corporations, many of whom did not need it:

Wage subsidies were meant to preserve jobs. In many cases, the $110.6-billion response padded bottom lines

Enough such stories, and there will be a clawback

[Thumbs Up]

Germ warfare? Gene warfare? Class warfare? Information warfare? All of the above? US has been at war of one form or another for over 100 years. War profiteering, propping up both sides of a conflict, war on drugs, war on terror, now the military industrial complex joining forces with the medical industrial complex. On the statement that this is wartime, I agree. But this virus was created. We fund bioweapon labs (lots of them). Partisan politics is just a distraction. Covid is the new 9/11. As far as paid propagandists go, it is the new advertising. Influencers, micro influencers, nano influencers is the new advertising platform. If you have 1000 followers you can make between five and twenty dollars per post as a nano influencer is what I read. Special interest forums like CF are also a form of social media. All advertising is propaganda. The field of public relations is the field of propaganda. Tricking people into believing. Objective journalism is gone. Bias used to be subtle, now it is blatant. No need to present both sides. Facts can be manufactured. My point all along is that we are being lied to. It's like we live in The Matrix. I must have ate the wrong color pill. I'm not feeling the warm fuzzy bliss that this society is promising. "Just take these injections and you will be happy again" is the message. "We have to inject as many people as possible before the truth gets out" is what it sounds like to my ears. Shifting this conversation to politics is a diversion. They just made it so that anyone who is vaxxed and gets covid, doesn't actually have covid unless they are in the hospital or die! Nobody here has anything to say about that?
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/cdc-limi...erns-1.1601415

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Nonetheless, the 91 yr old, the college students, most people... they're all going to spend that money, or reduce their personal debt, magnifying its effect.

This is one of the places where economists seem to have tunnel vision. I agree that we see the effect of the stimulus money multiplied but so too, eventually will we see the drag multiplied when we eventually have to service the debt we are creating. Taxes and more limited programming will ultimately lessen the supply of money and the stimulating effects replaced by what will need to be exactly the opposite effect.

I think that national debt is the easier problem to fix. AND... history might show that the massive early stimulus might yet prove to be the least expensive approach overall.

I do see lots of smart people touting the fact that dealing with the debt will be simple but none of the solutions have any successful precedent that I have seen.
I would love to hear a plan to address this debt issue.