Canadian COVID-19 News

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

I don't suppose they are the ones paying vulnerable people to take what most non-vaccinated consider an "experimental" vaccine just so they don't have to. I think Mike's scorn is justified in these alleged cases...

Absolutely correct. I am not suggesting we give them a pass for this. I do however think we could look at this as a testament to the fear these people face.

Having said that, I do support their right to not take this vaccine for whatever their reasons are ("experimental" or otherwise), but my support stops wherever they begin to expose others. Don't get the vaccine and stay at home, I am content. Don't get the vaccine and get a false certificate so you can circulate like others, I am not ok.

Watching some sanctimonious people yelling through Twitter at the system and the parents of young children for the low vaccination rates I can certainly see lots of vaccinated people unprepared to make the choice for their children. I am not taking either side here but rather pointing out the hesitancy that still exists in society.

Respectfully to those of you still feeling the need to point out the societal responsibility of vaccination, I agree with you. It is an obvious fact that you and I have stated many times. Having said that, I would love to use some of the dataset vaccination represents to better understand human behaviour. Life, and this situation, have taught me that we first act for selfish reasons.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by danstanford

It is my belief that if we could stop yelling at them about their responsibilities and instead hear their feelings we might have a fighting chance of modifying their beliefs. It has worked in my world as my employee not vaccinated is now vaccinated.

You're not wrong. The easy thing to do is to be angry, and to find fault with those who've refused to get vaccinated. The hard thing is to consider why they have refused, have some sympathy for that, and to bear this in mind when/if you want to persuade them to get vaccinated. A lot of social issues are like this (eg drug abuse) - empathy works better than restrictions and retribution.

But sometimes we don't have the time or resources to be patient and empathic with each and every one of them...

... I would suggest the vast majority of the unvaccinated, are people accepting the limits their fear of vaccination has placed on them and quietly doing what they think is best for their lives. I don't agree with their choices but I do understand them.

... it seems to me that, as part of their rationalization, a great many of them believe that COVID is no big deal, so the precautions are mostly overkill, and they resent the idea that the vaccinated are getting more "freedoms" than they are. And so many are not following all the precautions that the unvaccinated should be observing, both for their own good and for society.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Absolutely correct. I am not suggesting we give them a pass for this. I do however think we could look at this as a testament to the fear these people face.

Having said that, I do support their right to not take this vaccine for whatever their reasons are ("experimental" or otherwise), but my support stops wherever they begin to expose others. Don't get the vaccine and stay at home, I am content. Don't get the vaccine and get a false certificate so you can circulate like others, I am not ok.

Watching some sanctimonious people yelling through Twitter at the system and the parents of young children for the low vaccination rates I can certainly see lots of vaccinated people unprepared to make the choice for their children. I am not taking either side here but rather pointing out the hesitancy that still exists in society.

Respectfully to those of you still feeling the need to point out the societal responsibility of vaccination, I agree with you. It is an obvious fact that you and I have stated many times. Having said that, I would love to use some of the dataset vaccination represents to better understand human behaviour. Life, and this situation, have taught me that we first act for selfish reasons.

I don't disagree. In fact i mostly agree. Yelling never convinced anyone to change their mind and all sides of this mess should grow up and realize that. I long ago made it a rule to ignore anyone who resorted to calling names etc.

But I am a tad tired of being the bigger man; and treating them like 12 year olds is increasingly more palatable than putting in the effort with nothing but abuse and sulking in return.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by danstanford

I find it astonishing that we seem unable to allow what I said to be expressed without it somehow being conflated with harm to society.

You offered to an explanation based on your own perspective. I simply point out there are other ways to interpret the scant facts (which I remain skeptical of btw ... the story sniffs of poor journalism to me).

I don't accept that there is any reason to give a pass to someone who actively uses another person in a medically dubious, and possibly dangerous way, just so they can cheat the system. This doesn't negate the possiblity of fear on their part. But surely we can agree there is no excuse for the powerful to use the less powerful in this way.

Originally Posted by danstanford

I don't agree with their choices but I do understand them.

I said nothing to suggest otherwise.

[Mike OReilly]

As I've said, many times, I'm not in favour of forcing a vaccine on anyone. But neither am I willing to give the hard-core antivaxxer a pass just because they claim to be afraid, or whatever... If they are honestly fearful it is based on misinformation and a misunderstanding of the real risks. And yes, this includes the risks to others.

I can certainly understand these people, just as I can understand flat-earthers, or indeed those that ascribe to any number of magical views of the world. But understanding does not mean acquiescing.

My view is we should continue to reach out to many of the under-vaccinated populations who have good reasons to be hesitant. There are historic contexts which cannot be ignored. And we need to keep finding ways to meet them on their terms. The same goes for swaths of marginalized people, like those purportedly being used in this article. There are still lots of people whose life circumstances make accessing the vaccines hard.

For the rest, I simply think we should continue to put clear guardrails around their privileges in society. We should not force an injection on anyone, but neither do we have to allow these people to put others at unnecessary risk.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You offered to an explanation based on your own perspective. I simply point out there are other ways to interpret the scant facts (which I remain skeptical of btw ... the story sniffs of poor journalism to me).

So you are suggesting that their resistance to vaccination is driven by forces other than fear?

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

As I've said, many times, I'm not in favour of forcing a vaccine on anyone. But neither am I willing to give the hard-core antivaxxer a pass just because they claim to be afraid, or whatever... If they are honestly fearful it is based on misinformation and a misunderstanding of the real risks. And yes, this includes the risks to others.

I can certainly understand these people, just as I can understand flat-earthers, or indeed those that ascribe to any number of magical views of the world. But understanding does not mean acquiescing.

My view is we should continue to reach out to many of the under-vaccinated populations who have good reasons to be hesitant. There are historic contexts which cannot be ignored. And we need to keep finding ways to meet them on their terms. The same goes for swaths of marginalized people, like those purportedly being used in this article. There are still lots of people whose life circumstances make accessing the vaccines hard.

For the rest, I simply think we should continue to put clear guardrails around their privileges in society. We should not force an injection on anyone, but neither do we have to allow these people to put others at unnecessary risk.

There was an item, on CBC a few months ago, that discussed the psychological profile of many of the vaccine-hesitant. Apparently many of them frequent casinos, buy lottery tickets, etc. (and REALLY believe that one day they will win big and it's all worth it). The program then went on to suggest that they have difficulty understanding relative risks and odds. They have great difficulty understanding that the risks of catching Covid and getting really sick are much greater than the risks of any downsides from the vaccines - and then of course the resultant hesitancy is vociferously fed by all the anti-vaccine misinformation

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by danstanford

So you are suggesting that their resistance to vaccination is driven by forces other than fear?

Like smoke, some of the politically-motivated COVID misinformation and denial in the US has wafted north, and we also have our share of government-distrusting folks and "freedom" absolutists. So yeah, for some it's ideological/political rather than fear. A minority though.


[and what Scorpius just said. Combine misinformation with the inability to evaluate risk...]

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

psychological profile of many of the vaccine-hesitant.

repost:
https://www.straight.com/covid-19-pa...-need-our-help

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by danstanford

So you are suggesting that their resistance to vaccination is driven by forces other than fear?

Sure. In addition to fear, working at three minimum wage jobs and having no time, at least during working hours, to get to a clinic; being in a rural area with no convenient access to vaccination; indifference; laziness; procrastination; non-functional due to alcohol or drug addiction, automatic rejection of authority or anything emanating from government, etc., etc.

Where there is a will, there is a way - but if you are not inclined to take the pandemic REALLY seriously, you may simply not make the necessary effort.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

repost:
https://www.straight.com/covid...pir...-need-our-help

I just read the article in full. Note that it pretty specifically addresses the issue of anti-vaxxers. My comments are addressed more towards the vaccine-hesitant or simply the unvaccinated - a much larger group which my previously referenced CBC item addressed.

Note that your link leads to "page not found". I believe this is the article to which you were referring:

https://www.straight.com/covid-19-pa...-need-our-help

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

I just read the article in full. Note that it specifically addresses the issue of anti-vaxxers. My comments are addressed more towards the vaccine-hesitant or simply the unvaccinated - a much larger group.

Note that your link leads to "page not found". I believe this is the article to which you were referring:

https://www.straight.com/covid-19-pa...-need-our-help

Thanks. I fixed link (I hope).

Yes, article refers to the more "hard-core" group "questioning" covid-19 vaccines. (See, I didn't use the "anti" term....)

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by danstanford

So you are suggesting that their resistance to vaccination is driven by forces other than fear?

Yes... I assume that's what teed you off: A "sense of entitlement, power and selfishness some people have in their disregard for the collective well-being of society."

Actually, as with most things in the real world, I'm sure the actual answer is "all of the above," plus a whole lot of other factors. I bet "fear" is pretty low on their list.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

There was an item, on CBC a few months ago, that discussed the psychological profile of many of the vaccine-hesitant. Apparently many of them frequent casinos, buy lottery tickets, etc. (and REALLY believe that one day they will win big and it's all worth it). The program then went on to suggest that they have difficulty understanding relative risks and odds. They have great difficulty understanding that the risks of catching Covid and getting really sick are much greater than the risks of any downsides from the vaccines - and then of course the resultant hesitancy is vociferously fed by all the anti-vaccine misinformation

I can't recall the article Scorpius, but I do think you're right to zero in on the inability some (many?) people have in understanding statistics, and appreciating how to assess the odds of events. It's no surprise. In fact, it's a well-observed phenomenon that most of us have a hard time understanding these things.

The human behavioural theory is that Homo sapiens simply have evolved to deal with statistics and odds very well. We're great at assessing immediate risk but not very good at understanding risk of non-immediate dangers. Fractions are hard for most people, and appreciating the odds, and therefore the risks, are equally hard.

This certainly explains gambling behaviours, but also extends to things like insurance and how people approach risky activities like, say, sailing off on a smallish sailboat .

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes... I assume that's what teed you off: A "sense of entitlement, power and selfishness some people have in their disregard for the collective well-being of society."

Actually, as with most things in the real world, I'm sure the actual answer is "all of the above," plus a whole lot of other factors. I bet "fear" is pretty low on their list.

Obviously you are very entitled to your own assessment of what drives the unvaccinated among us. I know probably a dozen people not vaccinated today none of whom show those traits as driving their decision. In fact I do not know anyone exhibiting these traits save perhaps selfishness. These are not people picketing the health community nor posting on anti-vax websites, just people who fear the potential downstream consequences more than they fear Covid.

To be fair, they are also not people paying someone to take a shot for them. I would ask you to consider what is driving those people you know who are unvaccinated rather than assuming the same motivations as those you see in the media.

Again, you are welcome to your opinions and I do respect them.